Taking Sides: Liverpool vs Everton

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (1610 of them)
It sometimes occurs to me that Michael is Everton's very own Funes the Memorious, condemned never to forget a single dubious goal Liverpool have ever scored.

I remember him (I scarcely have the right to use this ghostly verb; only one man on earth deserved the right...

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 20:35 (twenty years ago) link

Without effort, he had learned English, French, Portuguese, Latin. I suspect, nevertheless, that he was not very capable of thought. To think is to forget a difference, to generalize, to abstract. In the overly replete world of Funes there were nothing but details, almost contiguous details.

Oh, dear. Can somebody wipe my brain, please?

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:13 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...
3-0 at White Hart Lane, of all places. That's even worse than October (or was it September?) 1986.

I am tempted to say 'Everton should be worried', save that... I don't actually think they should be worried.

Should Liverpool be worried? The Guardian report today says there's a lot of worry around:

Houllier's worries at his players' anxieties

Liverpool 1 - 2 Arsenal

Kevin McCarra at Anfield
Monday October 6, 2003
The Guardian

In the fight for success managers have wretched spells when they feel as if they are trying to thump phantoms. Gérard Houllier is perturbed. Having improved the attacking potential of the Liverpool side, he now finds himself battling on a more mysterious front. The minds of his own players are a greater worry than the abilities of the opposition.

There are no more signings to be made and a dustsheet might as well be thrown over the tactics board. In this defeat by Arsenal it looked as if the side had simply forgotten how to challenge for honours. There was much to admire about Liverpool before the interval but ruthlessness was not among their merits.

Worse still, the team then grew preoccupied with its regrets and let a 1-1 draw shade into a defeat. "The boys got anxious," Houllier admitted. "It was as if they were saying, 'We have done so well, and didn't get the goals we deserve.' It was as if they wanted to keep the result rather than keep going forward."

In such circumstances talent is just a provocation. It annoys supporters to recognise ability that is not made to count. Harry Kewell put Liverpool in front with a rapacious first-time drive after an Edu clearance broke from Michael Owen but his performance is tied to a moodiness that has his impact fluctuating over the course of an afternoon.

Owen himself is usually steadier, yet he malfunctioned before collecting the injury that makes him a doubt for England's match in Istanbul. Given chances to add to the lead, a lob went high after Kewell's flick had sent him through and so too did a header from Steven Gerrard's superb, pacy free-kick.

There was excitement for half an hour. Liverpool are no longer monotonous and the tactic of pairing the elusive Kewell and Owen in attack left Arsenal's powerful centre-backs lacking anyone to grapple with. Houllier's side, though, could not sustain their display and so suffered a second consecutive defeat in the Premiership.

They do not appear remorseless enough to make up lost ground and challenge for the title. It is Arsenal, mystifyingly, who have turned into the kind of hard-bitten line-up whose results can be better than their displays. Only the wonderful winner, when Robert Pires bent a 25-yarder round Jerzy Dudek, revealed the Highbury club's virtuoso traits.

Jérémie Aliadière, in his first start for Arsenal, must have concluded that the Premiership's demands are intimidating but Arsène Wenger almost revelled in his memories of survival in a desperate situation. "We were on the ropes for 25 minutes," the manager said. "We couldn't get out of our half."

Arsenal were level at the interval because Edu's header from a Pires free-kick broke off Sami Hyypia for an own-goal, but Wenger's main thought was that his men needed to push up and choke Liverpool's flow in midfield.

Arsenal, on their Premieship travels, have followed a valuable draw at Manchester United with a win here and Wenger has cause to acclaim the "solidarity" of his squad. All the same the leniency of Houllier's side was still the key to recovery. With Edu a useful deputy for the injured Patrick Vieira, Arsenal eventually started to pass steadily, even if their old élan was lacking.

Although Ashley Cole had to deny Liverpool a late equaliser by blocking El Hadji Diouf's effort on the goal-line, the Highbury team became increasingly composed. Sol Campbell, back in action for the first time since the death of his father 17 days earlier, gradually recovered his focus over the course of the match.

"Sol was a bit in-between on playing; he didn't know if he was ready so I decided just to push him in," Wenger said. "Sol didn't want to let the team down. He was a bit anxious and in the last 20 minutes he looked a bit tired. But you could see that he wanted to dig deep to finish the game well. He needed a lot of mental strength."

The professional concerns of footballers are trifling by comparison with those of a bereaved man but Arsenal are performing with fortitude. It remains to be seen whether the durability will last if there is a battery of suspensions after the fracas at Old Trafford.

Liverpool, however, are currently the more apprehensive club and once again there is talk of Gerrard and Owen seeking transfers if no Champions League place is won. Houllier did not deserve to see such speculation resurface but, although he was blameless on Saturday, it is always the manager's job to suffer.

the pinefox, Monday, 6 October 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

Liverpool are currently three [3] points above "crisis club" Leeds United. They may be playing better than Leeds, or not losing as heavily, or something, but this statistic alone might be reason for worry, I think.

Tim (Tim), Monday, 6 October 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

In praise of "soccer"
It's time for America to discover the knees, thighs and invention of the men
who play the most erotic game in the world.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By David Thomson

May 30, 2002 | Let me leave young women aside for a moment. I will come to
them. But what I want to say first is that this is that moment at which the
world comes to a proper celebration of something men were made to do,
something that is intensely physical yet profoundly imaginative, something
made out of muscle, speed, grace and the soul. I am talking about the World
Cup, about soccer, about football.

I know, that name is not quite allowed in this country because it is
supposed to be kept under lock and key for that other game -- not a bad
game, even if it compels men to be too large and replaces the real
adventures of the mind with the huddles, the jargon and the militaristic
submersion of identity in "planning."

So American football is a fine thing. Still, America could do itself good
all over the world by saying, Well, yes, after all, we all know what
football is, football is the game made by Stanley Matthews, Ferenc Puskas,
Pele, Maradona and Zidane, football is the world's passion and festival, one
of the greatest forms of play ever invented (and a turn-on). Therefore,
"our" "football" needs a new name -- let's call it "gridiron" or "attack" or
whatever you like. "Soccer" is such a stupid name. How many of the children
playing all over the U.S. today actually know why it is called "soccer"? How
many readers of this piece know? (For the answer, see below.) Give us back
the real meaning of "football."

And, no matter that the games are likely to appear on our television at
unearthly hours that do a lot to destroy the other rhythms of life -- you
should attend to this great contest. And its rhythm. Football is a game
played on a pitch at least 100 yards by 60, played at extraordinary pace, in
which most of the players are likely to be driven from end to end, back and
forth, while still finding the time to control, touch, deflect and guide a
ball that bounces to the moods of ground, wind and altitude.

Time and again, in football, you will see young men -- at the limits of
their physical capacity -- do astonishingly inventive things with the
rhythm, the direction and the winning of this very simple game. In its
essence, it should be played without lulls or stoppages. Only then can
change of pace and direction prove so decisive. It is trite to say that
football is like dance. Dance, after all, has no equivalent to danger,
contact, collision and courage. And dance is choreographed. The design is
meant to be carried out to perfection, whereas in football the perfection
will always emerge from spontaneity, accident and momentary impulse.

How sexy is football? As sexy as any performance where young men, trained
all their lives in skills and execution, still discover in an instant the
unexpected, the reversal, the purely personal option within a team's plan.
You will hear that some nations -- the Latin teams, say -- are more
naturally adept at this than others. Not so. Some of the greatest of players
have been European, and northern European at that -- consider Cruyff, Law,
Best, Beckenbauer and so many others. Some of the most turgid, paranoid and
overrehearsed football ever played has come from Italian teams. Still, there
is always the passionate example of Brazil, the savage moodiness of
Argentina, the exuberance of African teams and who knows what dark horse
this time?

Football does not take root in the U.S., so they say, and there are all the
old reasons -- not enough goals, not enough opportunities for commercial
breaks, an absence of melodramatic violence, too much stress on the mind.
Well, maybe America can and will live with those crushing definitions of
itself.

Or maybe it will observe something that is American in origin yet still not
figured out in many football-crazy nations: that it is a terrific game for
women. For if we have discovered something feminine in the game, then surely
the world is helped in enjoying the way men move. In that glimpse of
America's insecure maleness, there lies a way in which our culture of might
really moves ahead. But that would depend on more ordinary Americans
discovering the intensely sexual, intellectual allure of the game. Every
four years you get a new chance to abandon helmets, padding and the war
cries of the Marines -- and show us your legs, your knees, your thighs, your
invention.

*The game is called soccer because as it developed in Britain, it acquired a
Football Association (an organizing structure) to distinguish it from rugby.
The "soccer" comes from the "soc" in association. Which is not really a
proper way to name a great game.

the pinefox, Monday, 6 October 2003 16:02 (twenty years ago) link

Thanks for posting that Thomson piece, The Pinefox - it's fantastic.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 6 October 2003 17:22 (twenty years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2003-4. Yet (and I know this feeeling was not universal) I was cheered by their result against Leeds. I don't like to think of the pressure on Houllier if they'd lost that. Perhaps they will be top 4 after all?

the pinefox, Monday, 27 October 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link

I really feel it is looking grim for Liverpool. If they fail to get a Champions League place this year as looks likely, there will be a really awkward situation where they may be forced to sell Michael Owen, to avoid his leaving on Bosman the year after.

As far as I know the same is true of Steven Gerrard.

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 27 October 2003 14:48 (twenty years ago) link

Meanwhile Everton haven't managed a league goal in 308 minutes of play. The ineffective huff and puff vs Southampton was very shoddy (OK, we had the ball in the net three times - our only decent moves inside the final third all illegally executed) which seems to suggest that the greater flair we've added to last season's disciplined and methodical squad has had the effect of unstablising the whole mixture. No one wanted to keep the ball. At least we've stopped conceding penalties for the time being.

I suspect we'll thump someone out of sight once every seven or eight games and the rest of the time won't be able to find the key to the garage door, never mind first gear. 10th at best. With Liverpool 11th.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 27 October 2003 16:34 (twenty years ago) link

Further to my post I think, as much as I hate to say it that Houllier is never going to bring the title to Liverpool. I think it might be best if he went now aswell. I've been patient enough but I think it's time to let him go.

What do the other Liverpool people around here think? And the non Liverpool people also?

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 27 October 2003 16:52 (twenty years ago) link

Back in May I said of Houllier "I think he's pretty short on ideas and distrusts the kind of creativity that seems necessary to get right to the top." He has clearly been persuaded that he needs more flair, but he doesn't seem to know how to blend it well with their firmer qualities. I suspect they may be "only" a Keane/Viera/Makalele away from being serious contenders, though. Hamman will do his best to fulfil the role when he is fully fit again, but he's a class below that trio.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 27 October 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

Houllier and IDS must both keep their jobs - perhaps for life.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:03 (twenty years ago) link

It was 25 years ago today

Everton 1-0 Liverpool, Andy King 58min; Mike Pejic's long free-kick, Martin Dobson's knockdown (or was he outjumped by Phil Thompson?) and King's swerving 'fluke' volley from 25 yards. Clemence looked bewildered, shamed, hurt.

The sun dipping behind the Park End stand, flooding the BBC lenses, lending the whole thing a washed out, unreal feel. Couldn't we have scored in front of the Gwladys Street - dancing mass of blue, in full 625line contrast? No, this was better - look at the miserable sods behind the goal.

"Delirium at Goodison Park!" squealed Young Tyldesley on 194m MW. The same watery autumn glare in our old front room, Clive on the stereogram, my brother staring at the same piece of carpet for the last 32 minutes, hoping, praying (we still did then).

Richard Duckenfield's breathless fulltime scoop interview gets as far as "Andy King..." before a jobsworth rednose bobby intervenes. "Gerrof the pitch..." A staple on What Happened Next for years.

Magic/tragic/etc.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link

Very good-looking news for reds:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/3261175.stm

the pinefox, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 16:37 (twenty years ago) link

Little Wayne Rooney played terribly well for England the other day.

When he turned on a tuppence and pelted the post from nowhere I think I actually heard myself exclaiming "ROY OF THE ROVERS!".

the roonfox, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:27 (twenty years ago) link

one month passes...
Liverpool's (Annual?) General Meeting dominates certain back pages. Houllier wins 'brief applause' for his fighting talk, but is the first to leave. The chairman says they won't make changes till the end of the season, and that the buck stops with... *him*! He 'might sell to an Ambramovich'. (Imagine if Abramovich himself was allowed to buy Liverpool as well as Chelsea.) Meanwhile another millionaire buries a hatchet and may build a new stadium all over Stanley Park, perhaps centred on the original burial site of the hatchet.

A fan is reported as saying: 'all the talk's about catching up with Manchester United... but 14 years ago we were way ahead of them in terms of success, income and support'.

(14 years! It sounds like the kind of thing that... that *I'd* say.)

the liverfox, Tuesday, 6 January 2004 14:25 (twenty years ago) link

Were Liverpool ever ahead of United in terms of support? Not just attendance figures (Old Trafford always greater capacity than Anfield?), but worldwide fandom. Certainly the Cockney Red stereotype wore shorts of that colour too in the 80s, but I always thought Utd's appeal was global from the late 50s.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 6 January 2004 14:45 (twenty years ago) link

Yes... I guess worldwide I'd agree. In UK, don't know - maybe 20 years ago more wee boys sported Liverpool bags?

(Those bags, by the way - what a strange convention they were, utterly accepted and almost omnipresent, yet now presumably nonexistent.

I assume we know what bags I'm talking about.)

the liverfox, Tuesday, 6 January 2004 20:14 (twenty years ago) link

Three Liverpool victories in a week: 0-2 at Yeovil, 0-1 at Chelsea, now 1-0 vs Villa. I am pleased. You would be surprised, or perhaps I myself ought to be more surprised, at how much of an enthusiast for Liverpool success I have become. If I travelled back to 1987 and told myself this, he would be disappointed.

Perhaps the meaning of it all is that Liverpool now mean football's past? So I am keen on them.

cf. David Lacey's Guardian article also.

Everton were alas defeated in the capital.

Anyway -- assuming a Liverpool comeback of some kind, how far can it go?

the pinefox (Jerrynipper), Saturday, 10 January 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago) link

Is Stevie T a Liverpool fan at all?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 10 January 2004 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

Lacey's piece was very good yes.

I hate Michael Howard more than ever right now.

chris (chris), Sunday, 11 January 2004 10:52 (twenty years ago) link

I was sat in Rigby's (allegedly one of a handful of places in the world with Chimay on tap) on Dale Street on Saturday night next to a table of Reds thoroughly nonplussed by what they'd just seen at Anfield. Still, grinding out results like this when still looking nothing like a top-class side may see them win the also-rans' race.

Kilbane and Jeffers good again vs Fulham, but we wasted too many early chances. I fancy us in the forthcoming Cup rematch though.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Sunday, 11 January 2004 22:29 (twenty years ago) link

Owen sounds more like he's staying.

Much talk a la: "Liverpool now have to prove they're worthy of him".

But why? He is part of the team which has (relatively) failed - is he worthy of Liverpool? Shouldn't he be going out and proving it?

Insofar as he's not part of the failed team, it's because he has repeatedly seemed to play so few matches per season. So shouldn't he also be proving that he's fit enough to be offered a contract?

the liverfox, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 14:50 (twenty years ago) link

"The Liver Fox" - starring Nerys Hughes and Basil Brush.

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 14:53 (twenty years ago) link

Boom boom, la

the liverfox, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:46 (twenty years ago) link

well his scoring record has been consistently good, even with all the injuries.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:48 (twenty years ago) link

"It got to the point where Sam Allardyce was being linked with my job last week. That was funny." - G. Houllier, quoted today.

Dear me, BIG SAM and his TV promoter Robbie Earle won't like that.

the liverfox, Saturday, 17 January 2004 14:17 (twenty years ago) link

one month passes...
Alas.

the beebfox, Monday, 23 February 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago) link

I think Houllier should go now, this week, straight away. Failing that as soon as the season ends, regardless of league position. The club is going nowhere.

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:26 (twenty years ago) link

If he goes this week, you ain't getting Martin O'Neill until Celtic's UEFA Cup run is over.

ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:06 (twenty years ago) link

I guess so but nonetheless.

Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 23 February 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago) link

He'll go at the end of the season, short of miraculous form until then. Dave Boyle is convinced that O'Neill will replace him, which I find very plausible indeed, and that he'll turn them into a great team once more. He might be right.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 00:46 (twenty years ago) link

I ph34r MON leaving. But leave i think he will and Liverpool will be so lucky; if we're being honest, the celtic team is a bit of a bunch of cloggers who've not been attracting top club interest; he's made them mucyh more than the sum of their parts. Take that to Liverpool and it's quite frightening to the rest of the prem really.

Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:03 (twenty years ago) link

will houllier jump or will he pushed?

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:06 (twenty years ago) link

he'll be gently shoved at the end of the season.

It's sad, there was so much promise a couple of years ago and now what? sliding again into turgid mediocrity

chris (chris), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:07 (twenty years ago) link

Take that to Liverpool and it's quite frightening to the rest of the prem really.

Aren't people overestimating the quality of the Liverpool squad a bit? I mean, they're 26 points off the title pace - that's not all down to GH's tactics/motivational skills, is it? They're clearly a cut above the Premiership median and still probably favourites for 4th spot (57-60pts will do it this season) but this seems a weaker collective pool of talent than 2000-01 (OK, that is GH's fault).

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:18 (twenty years ago) link

I've been hoping that Houllier would be sacked since this time last year but now I'm starting to fear that the Board will give him one more season to come good on his promises. If we do that then we'll lose our chance to get MO'N, could lose Owen and Gerrard, and become a truly mediocre team. We'll become the biggest sleeping giants of all time - above us only sky and around us only shit.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:23 (twenty years ago) link

I think some of buys have been duds (there's a fine a venerable tradition of World Cup Pups; I see them as the footballing equivalent of drunken shags), whilst others are transitional, like Picture-penguin. But at the risk of sounding like a 5live phone-in caller, there's no way a team with Owen, Gerrard, Hamann and Hyppia should be 26 pts off the lead.

Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:24 (twenty years ago) link

I think it's a strong squad. They don't let in a lot of goals and they create a lot of chances. The big weakness is the over-reliance on little Michael to score all the goals. The addition of a proven goalscorer (is Cissé proven? I fear another Hadji Duff) could make all the difference.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:26 (twenty years ago) link

Liverpool appear to lack self belief at the moment. I think Cisse could be the key to next season, but you never really know. Diouf looked great at the world cup, but average in the Premiership.

I still think they'll get fourth. Does that constitute a decent season? I dunno.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:37 (twenty years ago) link

Can we talk about Everton now, please?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:39 (twenty years ago) link

Self-belief lacking? call MON...no amount of history and heritage and weight of expectation too grebt.

Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:42 (twenty years ago) link

In September did any Liverpool fan think that 4th would be a good season? I don't think so. If anyone says it is now, that's just because we've all lowered our expectations because a good side is performing badly and getting terrible results. Now 4th is the best we can hope for. That tells you everything you need to know about Houllier's progress as Liverpool manager.

Everton are even worse.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:42 (twenty years ago) link

See Owen's penalty at Fratton Park for belief, lacking in.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:44 (twenty years ago) link

They're a conundrum, all right. One keeps hearing of shambolic, aimless performances (though not at the back where they're famously tight) of unendurable negativity and then one reads the Monday papers' stats and they've had 37 shots on goal or something in a 1-1.

I liked Ian St John's claim that Houll the Ghoull is transforming the Anfield faithful into 'zombies', traipsing across a mist-shrouded Stanley Park.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:46 (twenty years ago) link

See Owen's penalty at Fratton Park for belief, lacking in.

That's nine misses in nineteen attempts! Who else would have him?

Everton - the Grand Old Relegation Struggle again. We can't even comfort ourselves with the notion that it's us and a dozen others because a gap has developed in the last couple of weeks and we're on the wrong end of it. I'm going to see them on Saturday - my first trip to Goodison in a decade - and hopefully it'll be our first league win of 2004. If not, I don't see us keeping the likes of Leeds, Wolves and Leicester at bay with any ease - none of them are in freefall, they're still snaffling up points here and there.

We seem to miss a similar proportion of chances to Liverpool, we just create a third as many. And we're leaky at the back in a way not hinted at by 02-03. This season we possession-dominate 0-1 defeats; last season we pinched even-steven games with late wonder-strikes. Gravesen is the most frustrating player to watch - occasionally inspired and inspiring, he misdirects more passes in 90 minutes than Paul Bracewell did in his whole career.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 12:57 (twenty years ago) link

Steve Watson was a big factor last season for your lot wasn't he? and this season he's having a mare.

What I've seen of Cisse he's been great, but always with the backing of Kapo while playing for Auxerre, maybe Kewell will provide similar service if he ever decides to start being a decent player again.

chris (chris), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think Everton will be drawn into a relegation fight. There are so many potential goals in that squad (Campbell, Ferguson (penalties and brave headers only), Radzinski, Rooney etc). David Unsworth isn't half the player he used to be, mind. And it wasn't much to begin with.

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 13:56 (twenty years ago) link

Steve Watson was a big factor last season for your lot wasn't he? and this season he's having a mare.

I'm not sure about that - he only played a dozen or so games last campaign but started this season in great form (the hat-trick against Leeds being the highlight) and then got injured. But, yes, terribly ineffective since his return. We've missed a fit Kevin Campbell this year but we're going to have to get used to that - it's twilight time for KC.

Ha, just checked the stats on the website and Gravesen makes 77% of his passes, making him EFC's Mr Accuracy. Sorry, Thom!

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 14:19 (twenty years ago) link

Ah I was getting the start of this season mixed up with last, oops.

chris (chris), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 14:36 (twenty years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.