Bashir's Michael Jackson circus......

it's obviously only the "case for the defence" rather than the "facts in the case", but i still think it undermines the ABSOLUTE of "settled-out-of-court" = "must therefore be guilty" (essentially what it does is even up the no-smoke-w/o-fire cynicism, if you like) (MJ has power yes, bcz he's rich, but he's also vulnerable, bcz of the degree to which his image is his power...)

partly my judgment of it is based on the fact that the authorities didn't carry on the prosecution — in respect of other cases? — after the first guy was bought off (like i said, i assume child molesting is still illegal even if the parents say "go ahead")

my objection to alex's question is this:
i have seen a documentary in a format i despise and distrust by a journalist i have zero faith in or respect for, about a man i have never met, in a plainly intensely stressed situation: alex is asking me to make a complex personal essentially intimate decision about my attitudes to him, my possible trust in him, HERE AND NOW, RIGHT NOW!!

i think this is a completely unreasonable and ridiculous question

So, Mark, am I to believe you're turning a blind eye to the more unsavoury parts of the program because you assert they are somehow taken out of context?

Have you not read a newspaper since, oh, October 2001?

I actually agree with mark s regarding all this. I don't think it's relativist to not take a position on someone/something that has no bearing on me whatsoever. I mean, hey I like to dance to Thriller at parties, but that isn't a tacit approval of anything MJ may or may not have done.

But then aagin I like climbing trees, so what the hell do I know?

I'm not saying you have to go snap your copies of BAD, THRILLER and DANGEROUS in half, but sakes alive, man....admit that there *MIGHT* be a problem!

On the other hand, Jackson's behavior around children still strikes me as psychologically damaging and inappropriate. Of course, there's no law against that.

And no, I've never been in court for anything (besides jury duty). But then again, I've never done anything like sleep with other people's children, so I have little to fear.

(what d'you mean you "actually" agree with me, hstencil, u cheeky monkey?)

"Would you be comfortable allowing your own children to sleep in the same bed with him, Mark?"

...at which point you assumed the role of the political prisoner and accused me of rampant McCarthyism.

PS Jacko wrote most of the songs (all the great ones), sang them, and danced his ass off. I'm not sure why Gordy or Q should get the credit.

It's a manipulative question because it's impossible (not to say irresponsible) to answer with the information to hand, and you're timing my reply, or lack of it, to PROVE THAT I'M TRAPPED IN A CORNER.

I do not believe that that documentary provided the evidence to make the judgment you are asking me to make, even if I could actually get my head round all the other things I have to imagine to make such an event possible.

If this is your idea of refreshingly flawed, then yes, by all means, Michael Jackson is refreshingly flawed.

this makes me so angry and so sad that I really really wish I hadn't read it. I don't know what is wrong w/your dorm-mate, but I get a strong picture from your description. The literal-mindedness and inability to relate that you describe are both very typical symptoms of autistic spectrum disorder. You could perhaps read about this, and try to understand the world your dorm-mate inhabits, college boy. A bit of empathy might make you a better person. He very likely isn't someone you need to be afraid of. Ugly minds like yours OTOH are very scary indeed.

If my post was insensitive, I apologize. The poor guy's most likely been through more shit than I will ever have to sit through in my pampered little life. But my point stands.

If yelling is symbolized via CAPITAL LETTERS, you'll notice I did no such thing. I merely persisted after you dodged the question.

The interview disclosed in very candid, plain terms that he's a 44 year old man that sleeps in the same bed with children. What more do you need to know?

This is patently untrue. All the best Jackson 5 stuff ("ABC", "I Want You Back," "I'll Be There", et al) were written by Gordy and Motown's staff of writers. And it's pretty well-established the backing band on the recordings were session guys.

"I'm not sure why Gordy or Q should get the credit. "

Because they co-wrote and/or produced every worthwhile note he's ever made...?

Obviously Gordy and Jones played an important role in his career. Nobody does it alone. But to suggest that they were the masterminds and he was the puppet seems a bit unfair to me.

I don't think Jacko's was a "puppet" exactly - not in his solo career anyway (re: the Jackson 5 tho I would say "puppet" is an apt term) - but he's hardly a creative powerhouse. That's not exactly a wealth of great material there, 4 songs...

I think by any standard that's a pretty weird thing to do - certainly unhealthy for children psychologically - there are very few socio-cultural (abject poverty, for example) circumstances where that's acceptable.

Ben: they aren't the sole measure, but when it comes to music, for me that's a massive part of it. Certainly it's a criteria for calling anyone a "genius" (a term I also cringe at using - hell, I don't even believe there's such a thing as "talent"...)

Very sound reasoning, Shakey, but I've since lost interest in the debate, nor relish the notion of being further branded as a hate-monger.

Hmmmm....well, I didn't *KNOW* Charles Manson either, but I think it's pretty safe to assume he's a crazed wing nut....but I guess I'm just a slave to the media that way.

i do actually seriously think that the judgment whether someone is fit to look after children shd be left to something more substantial than the mass TV audience of a piece of rubbishy tabloid television, especially when the presence of camera/interviewer etc, and the stress of the specific interview situation, may be the actual cause of (apparently relevant) oddity of behaviour

I don't give a fukcing shit about either michael jax0n or m4rtin bashir, for the rekkid.

I remember a thread about whether there is such a thing as talent, but I can't find it...

"Come on, you think Quincy Jones and Berry Gordy could have made just anyone into Michael Jackson? "

Not just anybody, but somebody else? Sure. Why not? Star-making machinery is uber-powerful.

alex, manson was tried and convicted in a court of law not by a television audience based on one TV programme

Oh that's right.....we only got wind of Jackson's weirdness this week. Prior to his chat with Bashir, everything was perfectly rosey and wonderful at Neverland, with no black clouds on the horizon at all.

Also, Manson didn't have the financial means to hire legal representation of the same might that Jackson entertains.

So everyone who's famous in the industry is there because they really are the most talented people around? Not anyone could "be" Michael Jackson, you're right. You need someone especially twisted to "be" Michael Jackson. In that respect, you're right. But truly, is Britney Spears so incredibly talented that what she does no one else who's been trained since birth to do what she does couldn't do it? Or for that matter, be better at whatever it is that Britney Spears does?

Of course media is "uber-powerful". As it has proven time and time again, it can shove crap on society that it doesn't want, until through repetition, it accepts it (eg, Limp Bizkit). That doesn't mean Michael Jackson is devoid of talent or ability, but to believe that he's the only person who could have sung those songs and danced like that is absurd. Perhaps they wouldn't have sold 25 million units and made 15 minute music videos, but they could and would have been successful.

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Alan

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Alan

I can point you to numerous psychological studies that conclude that children who consistently sleep w/adults (usually their parents, but I'm sure it applies to non-family members even moreso) past the age of 4 or so demonstrate various developmental/emotional problems. Let me know if you want me to look some up.