Billy Joel C/D?

I apparently have never weighed in, so since the opportunity arises: Why such a hatred for songcraft and production values?

(Me in Hongro mode)

If recording enough standards to make for an extremely solid Greastet Hits Vol I & II (that woulda been even solider with a few substitutions) is enough for classic status, then Classic it is.

(Not to mention fucking ATTILA!)

I, always being in Hongro mode, have to say that in terms of songcraft and production values, Billy Joel is only average. He has a long way to go compared to, say, Crowded House or 10cc.

He has a long way to go compared to, say, Crowded House or 10cc.

Or ABBA or KISS or Andy Gibb or INXS or Biz Markie.

he's no elton john either, to take the most obvious example.

be that as it may, here are arguments in favor of billy joel's songwriting craft:

travelin' prayer
new york state of mind
scenes from an italian restaurant
root beer rag (assuming instrumental craft counts as craft)
sometimes a fantasy
sleeping with the television on
don't ask me why
all for leyna
the longest time
tell her about it
a matter of trust
river of dreams
all about soul

and arguments against:

there are a lot.

but, come on, the dude could write and sing songs.

I, always being in Hongro mode,

quote of the day!

I like "Movin' Out" when it plays on the soft rock station!

such thick fingers

the dude could write and sing songs.

Sure, sure. Look, I could add to your list of songs that show off Joel as a good, sometimes inspired songwriter, e.g., Pressure, Allentown, She's Right on Time, among others.

But, as you imply, much of the time he's just coasting or operating on formula. Billy Joel is like the NBA player who almost exclusively takes very high-percentage shots: He has a good shooting percentage, it makes him a desirable player, but not a superstar among other players? Or, to draw another analogy, he's like a director who makes reliable action, hack-ish action movies but is capable of occassionally -- when the mood strikes him -- making a real highbrow film.

But Spoon apparently likes Billy Joel a lot, so maybe he isn't as big a dud as I thought.

Whoa, my grammer was terrible! Posting and parenting apparently don't mix. Off to parenting.

Posting and parenting apparently don't mix
Probably not, but that's how I got my start.

when i hear billy joel, particularly the 80s stuff, it always transports me back to my childhood. "Allentown," "Innocent Man," and "Uptown Girl" are, for that reason, classic.

Even though I know he's kind of schlocky, I have to echo the sentiment that I'm not sure why he is the brunt of so much hatred. He's not great, and he's probably a prick, but that applies to just about everyone in the music industry.

Billy Joel is hard for me to listen to, and though I agree that he's a good technical songwriter and probably a good performer (I've never seen him live), he just seems like a big cornflake to me. He's like the really hard working jingle writer who keeps pushing the importance of melody and a songs that are "timeless" or whatever because he knows that persistence pays off, and even though he's famous and all, I can't help but think of him as kind of a runtish, underdog guy. It's really not a fair criticism, I know, and I'm still not totally sure what it is I hate about him. I don't mind forumla, I just hate the hammy, headfirst dives into such pleasant, middlebrow material. He's a throwback to "classic" songwriting in the worst possible way, the way that reminds me why songwriting didn't stay like that forever.

that said, I like the background harmonies in "It's My Life"

haha I started this thread?!?

lol that people supposedly hate Billy Joel for his songcraft and professionalism, like what else is there to hate?

drunken assholishness?

the list is endless...

playing guitar?

i can say i like a few of his songs, when he kept it simple: "it's still rock'n'roll", "you may be right", "don't ask me why" are pretty good pop tunes, imo.

neither classic nor dud

"rocking out"?

haha I started this thread?!?
Apparently. More importantly, you started the "Billy Joel is the American Elvis Costello" meme

I, always being in Hongro mode,

quote of the day!
Now I'm picturing a sci-fi book called I, Hongro, but I can't work out the Three Laws of Hongrobotics.

I hate the whole Everyman know-it-all persona, but I don't hate across the board like I used to. Also, there are specific songs of his that I associate with particular assholes I've known in the past, or with particular unpleasant experiences, so there's a fair amount of negative associational freight that goes along with hearing his music.

RS OTM

I think he might be easier to appreciate from the midwest, or even the west coast, but here in the Northeast he typifies a sensibility that for lots of us it's hard not to be conflicted about.

His interviews, however, are hilarious.

amuse us and post some

Or ABBA or KISS or Andy Gibb or INXS or Biz Markie.

Billy Joel's songcraft is way better than INXS'. INXS was mostly about way too much repetition.

that said, I like the background harmonies in "It's My Life"

PETER CETERA

amuse us and post some

I recall one in which he was unconvincingly defending himself before a journalist who suggested that Joel was unable to make music that actually rocked. He was heard to say: "I-I-I don't have a soft cock. I have a hard cock."

waht

I guess he was trying to says that just because he churns out ballads doesn't mean he is cursed with a flaccid penis.

Maybe he's got a flaccid penis but likes to bottom.

I saw him on a PBS special or something where he was talking about writing "Only the Good Die Young" and he showed how it started out as a Reggae song- he started clanking out piano chords on the offbeat and singing in a vaguely Jamaican accent. But the guys in the band hated Reggae, so they re-arranged it.

I can identify four things in the preceding 'graph that make me dislike him. And yeah, the personification of a Northeast type that's really annoying.

classic.

someone told me that hard rock atilla band he was in was kinda tight. i haven't ever heard it.

attila sounds like late-period spinal tap with a hammond organ. and not in the good way either. but i'm probably not the right person to ask. the liner notes to the original album are hilarious.

for early billy joel psychedelic hilarity, i much prefer the second album by the hassles, hour of the wolf, which was his band before attila. attila is billy pretending to drop acid and lose his brain. the hassles is billy pretending to drop acid but still write pop songs, sort of. (or maybe he actually took acid, who knows?)

going backwards, the first hassles album, self-titled i think, is straight-up white soul garage rock pre-acid billy trying to be a long island version of the spencer davis group.

dude lived a full and varied life before he got to the pop charts!

Anyone want to comment on his Shea stadium performances? In the footage of it I saw on the news he looked like a sun-starved, bearded sea lion fresh from Coney Island. Ooh, close-ups of his hands on 50 foot video screens as he plays the runs from 'Billy the Kid!'

Pretty mean profile of him in last weekend's NY Times.

I really love the Nylon Curtain album...

Glass Houses, Nylon Curtain, Stranger = classics.

Some everything else pre-1990 or so, is pretty good.

Almost everything after then = dud.
Recent stuff aside, I LOVE this guy. Even the earliest stuff is harmonically interesting (see Cold Spring Harbour album and "She's Always a Woman to Me").

I still say "dud," but that NYT article makes Billy Joel seem . . . nice.

I'm predisposed to say 'dud,' but after reading this entire thread and seeing all of his 'hit songs' listed in one place, I must admit I don't actively hate a single one (except maybe "Piano Man," but hey c'mon that's a given - it's the poor man's "After The Goldrsh") and actually really like a few - "She's Always A Woman," "Big Shot," "Scenes From An Italian Restaraunt," even "New York State of Mind" - so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 'competent.' I don't change the station when his songs come on.

When indie rock inevitably "re-assesses" BJ, it's gonna be a hilarious and sad few months

While Bruce Springsteen has stalled the aging process through blessed genes or some Faustian bargain, Mr. Joel looks like every heartbreak, bad review, car crash and attendant tabloid dig has exacted a physical toll...

OTM.

When indie rock inevitably "re-assesses" BJ, it's gonna be a hilarious and sad few months.

See, e.g., Spoon, The Underdog (Summer 2007).

While Bruce Springsteen has stalled the aging process through blessed genes or some Faustian bargain

and, um, perhaps a hair transplant?

"Billy Joel's daughter took pills in NYC"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/6755157.html

"Summer, Highland Falls" is fuckin awesome
― TB, Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:15 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The version on "Songs in the Attic" especially. That's my favorite Billy Joel album, actually. Even the bad songs ("Los Angelenos," anyone?) re perfectly framed in their most appropriate setting -- small club when necessary, big stadium when necessary. And "Everybody Loves You Now" draws real blood.
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:20 AM (6 years ago)

otm

Not a Billy Joel fan, but v. sorry to read the story about his daughter. Hope she gets the help she needs.

As Brutt said, Songs in the Attic is excellent, as are Turnstiles, parts of The Stranger, and some singles after that..the rest is mindbendingly bad

also, the production and Phil Woods solo on Just the Way You Are (obviously the sentiment and lyrics are cringeworthy) are great

I don't think the sentiment is cringeworthy.