Dave Marsh

That Magma review is funny!

What's even funnier is that, in the blue edition, Mink Deville is listed under both the M's and D's, and gets different scores in each. (But such weird glitches -- and the crabby reviews -- are part of what made those editions entertaining. George Smith says they're great buying guides, too, but the trick with them is that, whenever you want to buy records, just go for whichever ones get the lowest grades.)

separate sections for Jazz

Actually, there was also a very slim, all-jazz-album yellow edition that came out around the same time as the blue one, but I haven't seen a copy for years.

Actually, there was also a very slim, all-jazz-album yellow edition that came out around the same time as the blue one, but I haven't seen a copy for years.
Yup, I've got it. But you're better off with a Penguin guide.

I like that the Red edition had cover photos of the 5-star winners,
Ha, it took me ages to figure out that the American flag was the cover of There's A Riot Goin' On. Then when I finally bought it, it had a different cover!

The quickly superseded Red edition from 1979 was even better.

Yeah, but the Red has Billy Altman's embarrassing Doors piece, sensibly replaced with Marsh's OTM anti-Doors piece in the Blue edition.

Okay, now I want to read this embarrassing Doors piece.

sensibly replaced with Marsh's OTM anti-Doors piece in the Blue edition.
Agreed, but then Marsh compared X unfavorably with The Doors. I never got the correlation, myself.

"Brash, courageous, intelligent, adventurous and exciting. The Doors were all of this -- and more."

Someone is confusing the Doors with Charlton Heston.

-- and more."
Well, I do agree with this.

The blue book (I think) was kind of the antithesis of All Music Guide and, to some degree, this site. Marsh and company had no qualms about completely trashing bands like Journey with one-star reviews for all their albums. Alex in NYC would approve.

Brash, courageous, intelligent, adventurous and exciting.

BCIAE is a crap acronym.

I didn't necessarily agree with most of the snippy quippy reviews in the red/blue books, but some of them were funny and memorable: the entire line of Sparks LP's given the lowest possible rating, and then docked one star each "for being somewhat responsible for Queen"; Triumph given the same treatment, being docked one star in this case for "plotting world domination from Canada. If they were from Germany they would be at least mildly threatening"; Cameo being described as a "rubberized Kool & The Gang", Pavlov's Dog as "Blue Oyster Cult on laughing gas"; and so on...

Those old RS album guides were so tone deaf as to be embarrassing to all involved. See, inter alia, the Black Sabbath reviews.

I had to throw out both the red and the blue guides years ago because they fell apart on me. But now I see Amazon has used copies for "38 cents and up." Hmmm....

my red one is hanging together by a few threads...(I had checked off all the records I owned back then)...the blue one is still doing OK...

Everything I learned in college I learned from the Red RS album guide or Halliwell's Film Guide, when it was still written by Halliwell.

all this red vs blue talk is confusing me. Is the 1992 the red, white, and blue edition?

there's another thread afoot about formerly popular acts who have faded into obscurity, and while he was never "popular" as such, a quick glance at those red/blue books reminds one of how critically acclaimed (nay, revered) Graham Parker was back then...and now, barely a blip...

Red vs. Blue would make a good poll. According to wiki, the blue offered a "revisionist slant to rock's history," so I'm guessing that was my favorite.

What's the matter with Graham Parker, now?

isn't the latest edition (2004) blue?

The blue book is only good for those

"GLAM BAND - Straight to the Top! - And then back down to the bottom."

reviews.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/RSRG1979.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/NRSRG1983.gif

nothing's wrong with Graham Parker now...

Except that it's been 29 years since he made a good album.

But when he was a critic's darling in that book he was actually good, no?

Maybe if they had given him less stars he would have had more longevity.

i never noticed before that between the red and blue books, they switched from "jazz" to "folk" in the list of genres on the cover copy. what happened between the late '70s and early '80s to warrant that change? how many late-night meetings did it take to get it done?

I think this is what Graham tells himself while cursing under his breath.

(xpost)

I have this feeling Ted Leo is well on his way to Graham Parker territory in terms of critical reaction vs. 'who was he again?' (If he's lucky, maybe Joe Jackson instead.)

except that graham parker had hits (three times in the US hot 100!) and joe jackson had even bigger hits.

I had always thought that rock critics in the late-70's created this myth of Graham Parker for the same reason they built up Elvis Costello: the vast majority of these critics looked like GP and EC...

x-post -- Minor details!

But did any of those rock critics ever make time with Bebe Buell?

Graham Parker surely didn't

I think Billy Altman might have...

i never noticed before that between the red and blue books, they switched from "jazz" to "folk" in the list of genres on the cover copy. what happened between the late '70s and early '80s to warrant that change? how many late-night meetings did it take to get it done?

See upthread. The Blue edition was accompanied by a separate (yellow) book called The Rolling Stone Jazz Record Guide. Not close to being as comprehensive as the Penguin guides, but a fair amount of relatively obscure labels were represented (ESP, Soul Note, possibly an FMP or two).

Some 4- and 5-star ratings in the red book, turning into 2- and 3-star ratings in the blue edition, was what made me realize that "the critics" were mainly to be used more as a discographical resource, and less so as guides.

Another oddity about the red book: The discographies were all presented alphabetically rather than chronologically, even tho the catalog numbers were all dutifully included.

As regards reference books, this one was invaluable/unbeatable:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2386809815_301edcd3d9.jpg?v=0

Twenty years on, my copy's kinda ragged but still in one piece, thanks to the masking tape reinforcing the last page.

Some 4- and 5-star ratings in the red book, turning into 2- and 3-star ratings in the blue edition, was what made me realize that "the critics" were mainly to be used more as a discographical resource, and less so as guides.

the revised ratings might also be an indication that critics can change and/or revise their opinions from time to time (e.g., marquee moon sounded like a 3-star record to marsh in 1979, but a two-star record in 1983).

i like marsh's "1,000 best records" book (or was it 5,000? or, um, 500? i haven't actually read it in years), tho i think i like it more as a list of great records than actual criticism.

I have the blue one, and it is in three pieces now.

Still no answer to Roxy's original question!

the revised ratings might also be an indication that critics can change and/or revise their opinions from time to time (e.g., marquee moon sounded like a 3-star record to marsh in 1979, but a two-star record in 1983).

No doubt, no doubt. I'm all for critics getting a better view of something with a little time/distance. But my point stands.

x-post

Isn't Marsh notorious in prog-rock circles because he's the one that fights tooth-and-nail to keep the Moody Blues/Yes/Genesis 70s prog bands out of the R&R HOF? Maybe it had something to do with that.

I was told that Iggy said "Thanks a lot, fuckers" at the televised opening of the R&R HOF. Maybe Marsh was responsible for their being there/playing in the first place (Detriot connex)!?

all this red vs blue talk is confusing me.

In case it wasn't clear, red is 1979, blue is 1983, and red, white, and blue (and black) is 1992 and hands down the worst as these OTM remarks attest to:

Later editions suffered ridiculously from Marsh's non-involvement and from the utter lack of half-literate music writers.

blows all those later stick-up-the-butt editions out of the water.

Haven't seen any subsequent editions.

Another oddity about the red book: The discographies were all presented alphabetically rather than chronologically, even tho the catalog numbers were all dutifully included.

THE worst aspect of the red edition. Even worse the years aren't listed. Who on earth thought alphabetically was a good idea?

But there are sooooo many other wacky things I love about the early editions though, like the one word reviews (e.g. Chase - Flee or Phyrework - Pheh), the "(artist) for (type of listeners)" constructions (e.g. Yma Sumac - "Patti Smith for xenophiles" or The Village People - "Kiss for grownups") or the scandalously say-nothing one-liners (Cats: "Bad mid-seventies rock band" or Hot City: "Disco product").

Wackiest of all is that this review of Jim Steinman's Bad for Good, reproduced below in its six-word entirety, was written by two (2!!) people (Wayne King and Debbie Geller): "Good for nothing, more like it."

That should be Hott City, disco friends.

You dudes got sidetracked on this thread.

i like marsh's "1,000 best records" book (or was it 5,000? or, um, 500? i haven't actually read it in years)

1,001; and that was the book that single-handedly got me interested in rock journalism/criticism - so I'll forever be indebted to Mr. Marsh.

red, white, and blue (and black) is 1992 and hands down the worst

There was a more recent edition, in 2004. It's not much more than a sad joke.

He's a horse's ass if he's blocking prog bands from the HOF, which is a stupid institution as it is.

Why do prog fans complain that their faves aren't in the HoF, and in the same breath say, "Yeah, well, the HoF is stupid anyway!" ? If you really think the HoF is stupid, your favorite band not being inducted should be a badge of honor.

Point taken. But even if I think it's a stupid waste of space (which I do), that doesn't necessarily mean that Geddy Lee, Jon Andersen or Robert Fripp feel the same way. And if Marsh is denying these guys an honor they deserve for some unreasonable categorical reason, then as a fan I have it in my rights to say he's an asshole.

Were there also controversial different editions of The Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Rock?

Came across this and asked where the lists came from
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/index.htm

It's from the New Book Of Rock Lists, 1994, by Dave Marsh and James Bernard. Many of the lists -- this among them -- are updated from the 1981 edition, and there's also a slew of additional lists.

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat,

some good and some strange lists there that some of you may enjoy

Pedro Bell’s Favorite Album Covers of All Time

In alphabetical order. Pedro Bell – aka Capt Draw – composed the intricate, urban sci-fi flavoured covers for eight Funkadelic albums, as well as all of George Clinton’s solo albums.

1. Abraxas – Santana
2. Brain Salad Surgery – ELP
3. Chief – Dewey Terry
4. Come Go With Us – Pockets
5. Cross Collateral – Passport
6. Doremi Fasol Latido – Hawkwind
7. Evolution – Malo
8. Fiddler on the Rock – Sugarcane Harris
9. Hardcore Jollies – Funkadelic
10. Heartbeat City – Cars
11. Honey – Ohio Players
12. Hustler’s Convention – Lightning Rod
13. Live – World of Ike & Tina
14. New Hope for the Wretched – Plasmatics
15. Nightmares – J Geils Band
16. Nuggets: Original Artyfacts of the Psychedelic Era – Various Artists
17. Rock & Roll Queen – Mott the Hoople
18. School’s Out – Alice Cooper
19. Stepping – Pointer Sisters
20. Tales of Topographic Oceans – Yes
21. Technical Ecstasy – Black Sabbath
22. Clones of Dr Funkenstein – Parliament
23. Electric Spanking of War Babies – Funkadelic
24. They Say I’m Different – Betty Davis

One Shakey mo will like

Larry Flick Picks the 50 Greatest Dance Hits

Larry Flick is the dance music editor at Billboard.

1. Last Dance – Donna Summer
2. Vogue – Madonna
3. Rock Lobster – B 52s
4. Into the Groove – Madonna
5. Disco Inferno – Trammps
6. Land of 1000 Dances – Chris Kenner
7. Le Freak – Chic
8. Stroll – Diamonds
9. Turn the Beat Around – Vicki Sue Robinson
10. He’s the Greatest Dancer – Sister Sledge
11. One Nation Under a Groove – Funkadelic
12. Loco Motion – Little Eva
13. Dance with Me – Peter Brown
14. Conga – Miami Sound Machine
15. Work Your Body – Taana Gardner
16. Whole Lotta Shakin’ Goin’ On – Jerry Lee Lewis
17. Get Down Tonight – KC & the Sunshine Band
18. Cool Jerk – Capitols
19. (Dance) Disco Heat – Sylvester
20. Workin’ Day & Night – Michael Jackson
21. Rock with You – Michael Jackson
22. Goin’ to a Go Go – Miracles
23. I’ve Got the Next Dance – Deniece Williams
24. You Make Me Feel Like Dancin’ – Leo Sayer
25. You Should Be Dancin’ – Bee Gees
26. Shadow Dancin’ – Andy Gibb
27. Dancing Queen – Abba
28. Dancing in the Sheets – Shalamar
29. Twist – Chubby Checker
30. No Parking on the Dancefloor – Midnight Starr
31. Le Spank – Le Pampelmoose
32. Do You Love Me – Contours
33. At the Hop – Danny & the Juniors
34. Mashed Potato Time – Dee Dee Sharp
35. Blame It on the Boogie – Jacksons
36. Disco Nights (Rock, Freak) – GQ
37. Night Fever – Bee Gees
38. Keep on Dancin’ – Gary’s Gang
39. Hustle, the – Van McCoy & the Soul City Symphony
40. Get Off – Foxy
41. Party Lights – Natalie Cole
42. Sidewalk Talk – Jellybean
43. Jingo – Candido
44. Tighten Up – Archie Bell & the Drells
45. Shake It Up Tonight – Cheryl Lynn
46. Do Ya Wanna Funk – Sylvester
47. Ain’t That a Groove – James Brown
48. Everybody Dance – Chic
49. Rock Around the Clock – Billy Haley & the Comets
50. Save the Last Dance for Me – Drifters

Greatest Dance Bands

1. Trammps
2. Sly & the Family Stone
3. Gap Band
4. Kool & the Gang
5. Time, the
6. JBs
7. Chic
8. Parliament-Funkadelic
9. Walker, Jr & the All Stars
10. Cameo
11. Commodores
12. Isley Brothers
13. Brown, Chuck & the Soul Searchers
14. Brass Construction
15. War
16. Earth, Wind & Fire
17. Prince & the Revolution
18. Ohio Players
19. Toni Tone Tony
20. Rufus

Top 25 Disco Hits

1. I Feel Love – Donna Summer
2. At Midnight – T Connection
3. Let No Man Put Asunder – First Choice
4. Relight My Fire – Dan Hartman
5. Got to be Real – Cheryl Lynn
6. Turn the Beat Around – Vicki Sue Robinson
7. MacArthur Park Suite – Donna Summer
8. Brazil – Ritchie Family
9. Heart to Break the Heart – France Joli
10. Love & Desire – Arpeggio
11. There But for the Grace of God – Machine
12. I’m Coming Out – Diana Ross
13. It’s Raining Men – Weather Girls
14. In the Name of Love – Sharon Redd
15. More Than a Woman – Tavares
16. Boss, the – Diana Ross
17. Take Me Home – Cher
18. Heaven Must Have Sent You – Bonnie Pointer
19. Heaven Must be Missing an Angel – Tavares
20. I Will Survive – Gloria Gaynor
21. Touch & Go – Ecstasy, Passion & Pain
22. Love Sensation – Lolleata Holloway
23. Doctor Love – First Choice
24. Boogie Wonderland – Earth Wind & Fire
25. Love’s Theme – Love Unlimited Orchestra

Sound of Philadelphia: Philadelphia’s 20 Best Disco Records

Alphabetical order.

1. Ain’t No Stoppin’ Us Now – McFadden & Whitehead
2. Ask Me – Ecstasy, Passion & Pain
3. Bad Luck – Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes
4. Dirty Ol’ Man – Three Degrees
5. Disco Inferno – Trammps
6. Do It Anyway You Wanna – People’s Choice
7. Doctor Love – First Choice
8. For the Love of Money – O’Jays
9. I Love Music – O’Jays
10. I’ll Always Love My Mama – Intruders
11. Livin’ for the Weekend – O’Jays
12. Love Epidemic – Trammps
13. Love Train – O’Jays
14. Only You – Teddy Pendergrass
15. That’s Where the Happy People Go – Trammps
16. Love I Lost – Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes
17. TSOP (the Sound of Philadelphia) – MFSB
18. Turn the Beat Around – Vicki Sue Robinson
19. When Will I See You Again – Three Degrees
20. Where Do We Go from Here – Trammps

Worst Disco Records

1. D’Ya Think I’m Sexy – Rod Stewart
2. Miss You – Rolling Stones
3. Disco Duck – Rick Dees & His Cast of Idiots
4. Funky Town – Lipps Inc
5. Grease – Frankie Valli
6. Lady Bump – Penny McClain
7. Dance a Little Bit Closer – Charo
8. Get Dancin’ – Disco Tek & the Sex-O-Lettes
9. This Girls’ Back in Town – Raquel Welch
10. Love Rush – Ann Margaret
11. Shame, Shame, Shame – Shirley & Co
12. Ain’t Gonna Bump No More (with No Big Fat Woman) – Joe Tex

15 Best Disco Albums

1. Bad Girls – Donna Summer
2. Once Upon a Time – Donna Summer
3. Saturday Night Fever (Soundtrack) – Bee Gees/Various Artists
4. Dr Buzzard’s Original Savannah Band – same title
5. Step Two – Sylvester
6. Chic – Chic
7. Diana – Diana Ross
8. Village People – same title
9. Never Gonna Let You Go – Vicki Sue Robinson
10. Four Seasons of Love – Donna Summer
11. Megatron Man – Patrick Cowley
12. We Are Family – Sister Sledge
13. Like an Eagle – Dennis Parker
14. Supernature – Cerrone
15. From Here to Eternity – Giorgio [Moroder]

10 Greatest Acts from the Disco Era – Compiled by Larry Flick

1. Summer, Donna
2. Sylvester
3. Village People
4. Chic
5. Cerrone
6. Bee Gees
7. Tavares
8. First Choice
9. Sister Sledge
10. Salsoul Orchestra

The Top Disco Producers

1. Rodgers, Nile & Bernard Edwards
2. Moroder, Giorgio & Pete Bellotte
3. Morali, Jacques & Henri Belolo (Village People, Ritchie Family)
4. Cowley, Patrick (himself, Sylvester)
5. Cerrone
6. Hartman, Dan
7. Montanta Jr, Vincent (Salsoul Orchestra)
8. Jabara, Paul (himself, Donna Summer, Weather Girls)
9. White, Barry
10. Richardson, Karl & Albhy Galuten (Bee Gees)

Best House Hits

1. Love Can’t Turn Around – JM Silk
2. Move Your Body – Marshall Jefferson
3. That’s the Way Love is – Ten City
4. Jack Your Body – JM Silk
5. Whistle Song – Frankie Knuckles
6. Gypsy Woman – Crystal Waters
7. French Kiss – Lil’ Louis & the World
8. Baby Wants to Ride – Jamie Principle
9. This is Acid – Maurice
10. Finally – CeCe Peniston
11. Pride (A Deeper Love) – Clivilles & Cole
12. Don’t Lose the Magic – Shawn Christopher
13. Where Love Lives – Allison Limerick
14. Power of Love – Deee Lite
15. Another Sleepless Night – Shawn Christopher

Best House DJs

1. Frankie Knuckles
2. Hardy, Ron
3. Levan, Larry
4. Morales, David
5. Vega, Little Louis
6. Vasquez, Junior
7. Humphries, Tony
8. MacIntosh, CJ
9. Benitez, John ‘Jellybean’
10. Pickering, Mike

Best House Producers

1. Hurley, Steve ‘Silk’
2. Morales, David
3. Jefferson, Marshall
4. Frankie Knuckles
5. Joshua, Maurice
6. Vega, Little Louis & Kenny ‘Dope’ Gonzalez
7. Sanchez, Roger
8. Mood II Swing
9. Pettibone, Shep
10. Clivilles, Robert & David Cole
11. Brothers in Rhythm
12. Snack Productions
13. Musto, Tommy
14. Chandler, Kerri
15. Basement Boys

So somehow one of the ten best disco producers (Vincent Montana Jr.) and one of the ten greatest disco acts (Salsoul Orchestra) teamed up to make one of the ten worst disco records ("Dance a Little Bit Closer" by Charo)...?

This looks interesting:

https://landofhopeanddreams.co/

There was some more talk about Dave Marsh in the boring classic albums thread, not very celebratory.

Various potentially interesting ones- Springsteen talking to Nona Hendryx; I think the guy Marsh is talking to on one spotlight conversation is a guy who wrote a decent Sam Cooke bio

I signed up for the Creem one (with Chuck Eddy) and the one after that.

Never heard any follow-up about Marsh after those Zoomcasts last year--his non-appearance made you wonder about his health--but a friend sent this along today, set to come out in August.

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kick-Out-the-Jams/Dave-Marsh/9781982197162

I don’t have satellite radio, but he has continued to host his weekly shows over the past year or so. Definitely looking forward to the book; hopefully there’s no overlap with Fortunate Son.

A new collection (came out of those Zoomcasts, I think):

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kick-Out-the-Jams/Dave-Marsh/9781982197162

I'll likely buy it at some point.

Just got the book yesterday, haven't dug in yet, but I'd already seen a number of these pieces. They date from 1984 through 2019 (? I think) and had previously appeared in Musician, Addicted To Noise, Rolling Stone (he wrote a piece or two long after he'd left), Rock & Rap Confidential, and The Nation, among others. The postscript is by Pete Townshend, and it's kind of hilarious. It also explains why Dave's 2002 piece excoriating Pete for saying "I am grateful for American military might" doesn't appear.

(full disclosure: I emailed Pete's post to Dave, who wrote a column in response, posted to a now-defunct site whose name escapes me. It ultimately led to Pete's site getting briefly shut down, and all posts and comments were removed once it came back up.)

https://slate.com/culture/2023/08/dave-marsh-new-book-best-music-critics.html

Kind of fluffy ode to Dave Marsh re new book collection and older efforts too

Marsh on Tina Turner's Acid Queen:

The material also seems ill-chosen, given the enormous body of work from which to choose. For instance: Why Led Zeppelin’s “Whole Lotta Love,” the original of which relies almost entirely upon the dynamic interplay between guitar and voice to succeed, rather than Bad Company’s “Feel Like Making Love,” which, while expressing the same blatant sexuality, at least possesses a real melody?

The four Ike Turner originals on side two are at least written in an idiom that the singer comprehends. If the best of them, “Baby — Get It On,” relies upon vocal discourse between the duo reminiscent of nothing so much as Sonny & Cher in blackface, it’s still not nearly so pathetic as this once-great singer pushing herself through a series of songs without either desire or understanding.

Yeeeeesh....

http://d28hgpri8am2if.cloudfront.net/book_images/onix/cvr9781982197162/kick-out-the-jams-9781982197162_xlg.jpg

Kick Out the Jams
Jibes, Barbs, Tributes, and Rallying Cries from 35 Years of Music Writing
By Dave Marsh

Spanning three decades worth of astute, acerbic, and overall astounding music writing, Kick Out the Jams is the first large-scale anthology of the work of renowned critic Dave Marsh. Ranging from Elvis Presley to Kurt Cobain, from Nina Simone to Ani DiFranco, from the Beatles to Green Day, the book gives an opinionated, eye-opening overview of 20th century popular music—offering a portrait not just of an era but of a writer wrestling with the American empire.

Every essay bears the distinct Dave Marsh attitude and voice. That passion is evident in a heart-wrenching piece on Cobain’s suicide and legacy; a humorous attack on “Bono’s bullshit;” an indignant look at James Brown and the FBI; deep, revelatory probes into the work of underappreciated artists like Patty Griffin and Alejandro Escovedo; and inspiring insight into what drives Marsh as a writer, namely “a raging passion to explain things in the hope that others would not be trapped and to keep the way clear so that others from the trashy outskirts of barbarous America still had a place to stand—if not in the culture at large, at least in rock and roll.”

If you want to explore the recent history of pop music—its politics as well as its performers—Kick Out the Jams is the perfect guidebook.

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kick-Out-the-Jams/Dave-Marsh/9781982197162

a book investigating why collections like this 100000% never use prog bands as touchstones would be interesting