Japan - Were they EVER good?

I recently discovered their Sean-rock albums from the late 70s, which I regularly play especially the Adolescent Sex song of course.

There's something odd about Sylvian's lyrics, which is that they consist almost completely of titles from Sartre, Cocteau, Picasso, etc etc. His songs are just knots of references to the (somewhat 'coffee-table') art that he admires. They're super-meta in a way I've rarely seen outside of western pop-besotted Japanese artists. I don't know if this is something conscious -- his tribute to Warhol, post-modernism, or something -- or something which shows his desperate feeling of being 'outside glamour' and remote from a creativity he nevertheless values above everything else.

Sometimes I feel with David Bowie that his whole career has been based on wanting so much to be 'an artist' that you just give it to him for the effort alone, irrespective of the fact that most of his work consists of schizoid impressions of artists he admires. So, if Sylvian was desperate to be Bowie, and Bowie was desperate to be Lou or Iggy or Mick or whoever it was that year, the whole thing starts to get dangerously meta and empty, and a bit sad.

A few circumstances might be mitigating, though:

1. Originality is the gap between your copycat intentions and the actual results. In other words, Bowie copying Lou Reed sounds like Bowie, not Reed, and Sylvian copying Bowie sounds like Sylvian.

2. If 'in the end soul itself is the longing of the soul-less for redemption', maybe being an artist is nothing more than the very strong desire to be an artist.

3. Collage and pastiche and even theft have to be seen as acceptable modes of composition.

4. Bowie and Sylvian never claimed to be 'real'. They're both the sort who'd much rather perfect an impersonation of Andy Warhol than get in touch with their true selves. And when, later in their careers, they both did that, the results were predictably disappointing.

And, btw, I love Thomas Dolby and Thompson Twins too. But Japan were even better ;)

Still, it wasn't a bad deal, because Nick Rhodes got Sylvian's hair and Barbieri's keyboard settings.

Part of me would love to hear Sylvian actually sing this, though.

Racking my brain, I can't think of another band - apart from Talk Talk, perhaps - that evolved as much musically. Japan were the most original and exotic mainstream group in the 80ies that you could take seriously (we're not talking Classsix Nouveaux!), marrying tradition with the avantgarde and still enjoying some degree of chart success. Most importantly, all four of the core members were school friends and shared the same vision - now compare that with the public and state school visionaries of today - Busted, McFly...

As for Sylvian, though I prefer his solo vocal style, I've always found his dramatic and emotional voice perfectly suited to Japan's haunting atmospherics. Comparing him to non-voices such as Simon Le Bon or Dave Gahan is clearly an insult. As is the erstwhile review of "Ghosts" from Melody Maker, which nonetheless manages to raise a smile: "The sound of the dying Bryan Ferry in a malfunctioning dishwasher." Now that's what I call poignancy.

Bowie's Lodger, Low and Heroes were all coming along nicely and early Roxy Music was probably a help.

In a time when popular music had become so stale and boring, leading to the reactionary evolution of the Sex Pistols and the punk rock revolution, Japan stood out as not conforming to any trend, but sticking to doing something different in the midst of punk rock nihilism, in the same way bands like Magazine did. Incredibly brave or foolish at the time I guess.

They were the first ‘Band’ to use Giorgio Moroder as a producer, beating Blondie too it, and you can defiantly can dance to em. Adolescent Sex is as funky as Chic, with a Glam/Punk sneer (with something nice and immature about it), and Life in Tokyo is classy as hell analogue disco genius – I think they grew up a lot in public, and were lucky the music industry allowed them to do so. I don’t think this could happen to an artist now.

From this teenage glam rock funk thing of the first two (maybe three) albums through european disco they evolve into a very original art house machine of fantastic musicians, releasing objects as bizarre as uk chart topping single ‘Ghosts’ (can you imagine something as odd and abstract as that in the charts today??). For a minute I thought they were going to turn into Can, but it sadly wasn’t to happen. I think they dropped all the rock and roll out of the band, and I kinda missed it.

Not everything they have done is good (a fair bit is dodgy), but some of it is sublime, other bits fun, and they are indeed unique. If your looking for a pop band like a pre-cursor to Duran, then Japan are not it. There albums are not easy listening, and take a while to get into, but I think it’s worth it.

Sylvian’s voice may have borrowed heavily from Ferry and Bowie, but even that took on a tone all of his own, and seemed to carry this deep inner sadness, with a very English reserve, the like of which will never be heard again. Sometimes it still makes me cry when I listen to it, even on the solo stuff.

Steve Jansen managed to produce some of the most breathtaking rhythmic structures, and I think is a totally underrated drummer – more importantly my girlfriend recons he may even be better looking than brother David.

I don’t think Duran wanted to be them, only Nick Rhodes and Stephen Tin Tin Duffy from the original lineup did. Duran had a different agenda (pop starts) compared to Japan’s yearning for artistic credibility. Duran actually begged Japan to produce them at one point, but in retrospect I bet Duran are glad they didn’t.

As for the ‘Romo’ scene Orlando were a terrible hi-nrg stage school pet shop boys band wagon jumpers (previously signed to indie label, got all electronic and make-up when it was trendy) and shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same thread as Japan (or the pet shop boys for that matter), so stop it.

I was too young to like em at the time and got into them in the late 90's through the solo stuff with Can and Fripp.

Nope, don't like Thomas Dolby or Thompson Twins, even in really small doses.

Yep they sounds dated.

That's not quite a fair analysis...compare the Reproduction Is Pollution EP to Passive Soul (the former release was put out under the name "Shelley" on Sarah Records and wasn't quite by the same band, but I assume that that's what you're referring to). Baroque sensibilities tie it together. With the possible exception of Just For A Second (which is admittedly quite Hi-NRG, though I'd say that it's far from terrible), I can't detect a discernable lipgloss/mascera aesthetic any more readily with them than I can in a Scott Walker or Divine Comedy album. And JFAS's B-Side (Something To Write Home About) dispells even the idea that that single was a bandwagon-jumper; it could scarcely be farther removed from the "vapid" RoMo aesthetic.

This has done little to argue that Orlando belongs in a Japan thread, but that was never my assertion anyway. I rarely decline a dismissed soapbox.

I had the Shelley record, which I liked, and just got pissed of when they did this transformation into a bland which sounded like Gary Barlow song writing produced by Stock Aitkin and Waterman. Suddenly they were wearing orange make-up, lip gloss and shinny suits, and the lead singer camping it up like Liza Minelli on helium, with a huge cheesy grin. They had become a vapid pop band, with as much musical integrity as Dollar. I don’t think this was the best move for them creatively.

Live they made me ashamed to have liked them, and almost physically sick. The obvious backing track and mimed guitar were not what I was really after.
I guess when you see your chance for fame money and success sometimes you just have to go for it. I have to respect them for that at least it was a very brave move – they just chose the wrong bandwagon I guess, and should have stuck to indie.

I'm an American, so I never got the chance to see them live, but it wouldn't very much surprise me if they were less than excellent. Dickon, for all his virtues, is a poor guitarist, and Tim's singing is an acquired taste even when glossed with all those production tricks. Then again, it's no secret that I prize vapid pop, so this outpouring of love could likely be evidence of poor taste on my part.

I've still not decided whether that first sentence was meant in earnest, but I quite appreciate your sentiment either way.

I still like them a lot. The later, more atmospheric stuff is good too, but the first two...

www.karmadownload.com/artist/?xavior

I am also selling my soul on ebay (www.ebay.com), but, like the Holy Grail Herself, the item number is top secret, and clues abound regarding its location...

Go Forth Knights...

Xx

Yes, Japan were good.

it's been touched on before on ILM, but i joyously shudder listening to "Quiet Life", It is brillant, sexy, catchy and uncanny: it's Duran Duran's debut album two years earlier!

It's kinda scary. Intended or not.

It's fun to do that but I don't think it's 'right' per se -- for instance, our own Dee, Duran freak extraordinaire, is VERY much a Japan fan too and sees the inspiration clearly while still loving Duran deeply.

Ned, forgive me.

Why does Japan have such a horrible reputation? It's primarily outside of England that this is the case. I remember Blender mag foolishly declaring them one of the worst bands of all time in the early 2000s. Look at this thread title: YES, of course they were. The most innovative band in the world for a short while in the early 80s. And they were popular at the time!

When did the backlash happen? Was it just that the band had a very new wavey 1980s aesthetic and was subsequently misjudged and tossed in with the more processed bands of the time?

― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin)

uh well they had no American reputation at all unless you read Trouser Press or some shit

Japan didn't have a particularly great reputation in the UK on their first couple of albums, as it happens. In fact, it took them until Gentlemen Take Polaroids to finally get the recognition they deserved in the UK. They were completely out of step with what was going on at the time in the UK on Adolescent Sex. On the other hand, Quiet Life was a little ahead of its time - it performed poorly on the chart and the title track was only a hit when it was reissued about a year and a half after the album had been out. It sounds like proto-Duran Duran now, but the UK hadn't caught up with what they were doing yet. By the time they'd truly cracked it critically and commercially with 'Ghosts' and Tin Drum, they were finished. To the casual observer in the UK, it must have seemed like they were here today and gone tomorrow, even though they were big in Japan from the beginning. You have to remember, the Quiet Life to Tin Drum period wasn't really that long a period of time, and by the time Japan called it quits, Duran Duran had arrived with a far more accessible (although admittedly not as good - bar Rio) take on what Japan were doing - and they were better looking and more willing to play the fame game.

It's true that Japan's reputation has only increased with time, though - I still remember seeing the video for 'Visions of China' on MTV in the '90s! There was a lot of "the '80s were crap and the music sucked" talk in the '90s, which I basically put down to that natural thing of there being nothing that seems as uncool as things from the previous decade. That kinda perception got readjusted in the '00s, and then further this decade.

I was reading pro-Japan articles in the early '90s, in the throes of my Ferry obsession.

Yup. Japan seemed more immune to the '90s backlash against "'80s music" than most. They'd also got back together to do the Rain Tree Crow album in '91, which I'm really glad didn't come out as a Japan album because it's a different thing.

Bumping this thread to post a link to this recent interview with Rob Dean:

http://www.electricityclub.co.uk/missing-in-action-rob-dean/

Also, there are two types of people in the world: those who think Japan/DS/JBK/all other associated artists are AWESOME and the people who are so wrong they may as well be the mayor of Wrongville.

great interview... thanks for posting it.

Well, yeah.

Some nice insights from Steve Jansen here

https://timstwitterlisteningparty.com/pages/replay/feed_683.html

& a listening party for Gentlemen Take Polaroids on May 1st

I went through Steve Jansen's Tin Drum listening party. I thought it was odd that he had no comments, mentions, namechecks or any callouts whatsoever to David Sylvian, while on the other hand both Richard and Mick were frequently mentioned. Hope that was unintentional.

I'm pretty sure that, despite being brothers, they don't get along. Sylvian made some pointed comments about musicians "who should know better" who try to duplicate the sounds of others to create product that I'm pretty sure were aimed at Jansen.

no comments, mentions, namechecks or any callouts whatsoever to David Sylvian

The same phenomenon can be observed in a recent interview that Jansen and Rob Dean gave to promote the Quiet Life reissue. Someone asked about this in the comments section, and the interviewer replied, "The reality is, David wants nothing to do with his past – not only does he refuse any part in promoting Japan, he won’t even promote his past solo career."
So perhaps Jansen is just respecting his brother's desire to completely disassociate himself from Japan.

I guess Sylvian doesn't want to talk about anything at all, since he's not making any new music to discuss.

Sylvian has been on Twitter a bit, recently. More often than not he's recommending other people's music but he did seem to engage with questions briefly ... but held a fairly hard line of, I dunno, disinterest in old music.

So perhaps Jansen is just respecting his brother's desire to completely disassociate himself from Japan.

David Sylvian often said that he didn't want to dwell on the past or live in nostalgia. During his solo career he already often disassociated himself from Japan (save for Ghosts). I remember he had announced his last tour in 2007 as a final outing of his past work. The performances were really good though, it didn't seem as if he minded playing them once more.
I recall how I briefly spoke to him in 2003 after a concert, which had surprisingly featured Japan's 'The Other Side Of Life'. I thanked him for playing that song and he smiled very proudly in return. I then asked him if the recent reissues of his albums were his choice or the studio, he said it was partly the studio but also partly him, I said that I kinda minded that some remixes closed the first disc of Gone To Earth which disrupted the album flow for me, he said it was the only reissue he also wasn't sure of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99s9hTIELCo

I recall how I briefly spoke to him in 2003 after a concert,

this is an amazing recollection. i know he's a real person, but i guess i've always just imagined david sylvian to be this opaque aura of an existence. i know he's able to speak in a normal conversational voice, but i can't be anything other than intimidated when i try to imagine what that must have been like. he's like a greek god or something to me by this point.

I had exactly the same reaction.

jansen played extensively on all of sylvian's solo work up until dead bees on a cake, played live with him (including on sylvian's final tour in 2007), was part of nine horses with him, and played on the title track on died in the wool which was released in 2011 so if they fell out or anything it must have been relatively recent

have been getting really into sylvian lately, somehow his work never clicked for me last time i'd tried listening to it ages ago but this time it's all incredible to me

The Rain Tree Crow project fell apart when Sylvian had a physical altercation with Jansen, it's said. They're a little more discreet about this sort of thing than the Gallaghers or Davies brothers, though, so who knows.

I interviewed him once, years ago. I was worried it was a mess, but just checked it out and it's ok. He's a smart, thoughtful guy.

xp i never realised things got that bad between them, huh. i guess the most likely story then is that they've fallen out and in over the years - it was 9 years between rain tree crow and their next time working together on dead bees on a cake.

the narrative with tin drum & gentlemen take polaroids has always been that sylvian seized creative control which lead to the band's break-up so i'm sure at the very least jansen wanted to highlight what he & the others brought to the table

http://www.stevejansen.com/news/an_in-depth_interview_with_steve_jansen.html

here's a interview with jansen from sometime in the last few years which is quite a good read. he says his view of those japan albums was that what was good about them was the musicianship of the whole band and the arrangements, which everyone was involved in, with the songwriting itself not being anything special, so he regrets not pushing back against sylvian's narrative of being the main creative force on those albums at the time.

he seems to imply he hasn't really been interested in collaborating with sylvian since sylvian's 2007 tour out of a desire to focus on his own work instead of spending a lot of time backing sylvian (though it's not like sylvian has been doing that much more recently either). he talks fondly of nine horses as a project and seems disappointed they weren't able to do more together as more equal partners though, and also regrets that they ended up doing a sylvian solo tour after the album instead of a nine horses tour. the most he really gets into any tensions with sylvian is frustrations about his label. he talks a lot about his relationships with the other members of japan too.

i know he's able to speak in a normal conversational voice

Maybe not. His voice completely mesmerized me. I remember how I first thanked him for the concert & 'The Other Side Of Life', then asked for an autograph, then meant to ask him about those reissues but there were more people waiting and they asked for autographs before I could ask. I still managed to say that I had a question for him. While he was signing, he said to me "You can ask your question." and the way he said that was like a magic spell. Soft, calm, soothing and caressing but also strong and deep. Guy's a wizard.

His speaking voice was like he's also heard on his later 'Uncommon Deities' record.

YOU MAY ASK YOUR QUESTION, PUPIL

O_O

unreal.

That cleaned up/edited TOTP performance from 1982 is amazing, thanks for sharing Maresn3st!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ07LpCp3jc

Farrah Fawcett was hot for a while.

I always try to go for early 80s Sylvian when my hair gets longish

hair idol <3

https://jansenphotographyblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/1081.jpg

I thought he'd have a picture of Mao in his kitchen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_370OVHy80

See what I mean?

so handsome <3

you mean like the tin drum album cover? was he actually a Maoist?!?

Items from Mick Karn's personal memorabilia collection currently on eBay, for those who may be interested:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/joseph4jansenphoto/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=