all this talk of avant garde/artistic pretensions is insane--she's basically a folk singer.― call all destroyer
― call all destroyer
the point I was trying to make upthread is that of course it's ridiculous for people to call her music avant-garde, but for some reason people do it, again and again
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:08 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah i guess i'm just going to get annoyed if we can only talk about this record through the lens how how some mysterious constructed 25-35 year old thinks of it.
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link
re "digested in pieces"
when it comes to a novel or something, it's just sort of assumed that the reader will take it in in multiple sittings. but with a record that isn't some sort of multi-disk compilation or something, with an album, i think there's sort of an expectation that it will be taken in in one sitting, so spreading something across three discs is going to try the patience of many listeners.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:10 (fourteen years ago) link
ok here's a hint--by running time, this could have fit on two cds.
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:12 (fourteen years ago) link
this is a degree of whiny tight-assery that should be filed under some word that "first world problems" won't adequately cover
― allyboy (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, February 22, 2010 12:44 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― jeff, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:12 (fourteen years ago) link
it's two hours long. i don't know about you, but i think the ideal length for a record is somewhere between a half hour and fifty minutes nine cases out of ten. not to say this one should be shorter, but even as a JN stan, i really can't see myself listening to this straight through too often, if ever.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:14 (fourteen years ago) link
and if i start to listen to it in parts instead of straight through, then that's a really different approach to listening to a record than i, and i'd assume many of us here, usually take.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:15 (fourteen years ago) link
yes--you are making my point for me--it is broken up across three discs so that you don't need to listen to it straight through. if you feel some weirdo obligation to because it's an "album" i don't know what to tell you.
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link
i listen to parts of albums all the time--since i mostly listen to music when i'm driving or walking somewhere i'm beholden to however long my trips are.
fair enough, cad
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:22 (fourteen years ago) link
At least Whiney sticks to his guns when he has an opinion, kshighway keeps backing down whenever his opinions are challenged. I can tell you which of the two I admire more.
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:27 (fourteen years ago) link
I liked kshighway more when he was an earnest indie boy before he melded his opinions to match whatever ILM consensus happens to be.
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link
or someone makes a good point--like cad did when he pointed out some people listen to music differently than i do--and i realize i'm off a bit.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link
jon dont be a dick
― max, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link
i liked jon more when he was an agreeable and engaging ilm poster and not a complete dick
― stoke for the shawcross (acoleuthic), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:31 (fourteen years ago) link
I liked kshighway more when he was an earnest indie boy before he melded his opinions to match whatever ILM consensus happens to be.― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0)
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0)
O_O
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link
If my opinions were the same as "ILM consensus" (whatever that means), I don't think I'd get called out by people daily who think I'm completely wrong. Nice try, though.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:33 (fourteen years ago) link
Also, pretty sure Whiney dropped one of his opinions upthread when people called him out on it too. Because that's what reasonable people do when someone obviously proves them wrong.
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:35 (fourteen years ago) link
I've just never seen someone switch from earnest and passionate to jaded and bitter so quickly, its disheartening that he felt the need to do so.
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:35 (fourteen years ago) link
Not intentionally being a dick. I just liked kshighway when he was more earnest about what he loved.
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:36 (fourteen years ago) link
there are many sides to ksh
― velko, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:36 (fourteen years ago) link
ksh = american jagger, let's just move on with our lives
― waka flocka pedia (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:37 (fourteen years ago) link
Uh, in the past day, I've thanked the people in the Rolling Metal thread for turning me on to Alcest, whose 2007 record I'm "earnest and passionate" about?
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:38 (fourteen years ago) link
Hmm yeah but on this thread you've ragged on people who've mostly just been trying to defend Newsom! It's fine to call bullshit on the arguments, but character-attacks aren't on. Especially coming from someone I rate and respect as an ILM poster.
― stoke for the shawcross (acoleuthic), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:38 (fourteen years ago) link
American jagger, stay away from meAmerican jagger, mama let me beDon't come hanging around my doorI don't want to see your face no moreI got more important things to doThan spend my time growin' old with youNow jagger, stay awayAmerican jagger, listen what I say
American jagger, get away from meAmerican jagger, mama let me beDon't come knocking around my doorI don't want to see your shadow no moreColored lights can hypnotizeSparkle someone else's eyesNow jagger, get awayAmerican jagger, listen what I say
― Mr. Que, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:39 (fourteen years ago) link
LJ, was that addressed to me or jon?
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:40 (fourteen years ago) link
And jon,
Man, I have so much love for Ys, but I could see why some would prefer Mender.Wilco did "avant-garde" better with YHF, tho. . . . . . . . . .― ksh, Sunday, February 28, 2010 3:18 PM (1 hour ago)
Wilco did "avant-garde" better with YHF, tho. . . . . . . . . .
― ksh, Sunday, February 28, 2010 3:18 PM (1 hour ago)
Except for the Wilco joke, pretty sure this qualifies as earnest too. But I'm done defending myself now, thanks.
hahaha que
― waka flocka pedia (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:40 (fourteen years ago) link
It was addressed to Jon, quite obviously. You may yet earn similar levels of respect.
― stoke for the shawcross (acoleuthic), Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:42 (fourteen years ago) link
hahaha
― ksh, Sunday, 28 February 2010 21:42 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't understand this opinion tbh! "backing down" here seems to be "having a mind open enough to be persuaded" which seems a positive & constructive value & especially useful in learning various ways to appreciate & experience music & other art
― Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Sunday, 28 February 2010 22:18 (fourteen years ago) link
peeanna newsom
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Sunday, 28 February 2010 23:06 (fourteen years ago) link
Something I was alluding to above is that I generally like the adventure of these sorts of sprawling multi-disk albums, the sense of discovery. I like this album plenty, but so far it doesn't hold many real surprises for me, pleasant and well-crafted/performed though it may be, and its length may prevent me from taking the time to see how it could grow on me in an honest way. Maybe after five listens it would really click, maybe after five listens I'll never want to hear it again, but I highly doubt I'll ever give it five full listens. Ever. And I like it! Too much of a good thing? Too much of a good enough thing? I would have gladly accepted a few scattered lows in return for a few more overt highs.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 28 February 2010 23:32 (fourteen years ago) link
what if you pretended that she only released the first disc, and listen to that a lot. and then a year from now, pretend in your mind that she released the second disc as a new album, and listen to that one a lot. and then a year from that, pretend that the third disc is another album
― max, Sunday, 28 February 2010 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link
Good strategy! I'll let you know how it goes in 2013. Hopefully she (or anyone else) won't release anything new until then.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 1 March 2010 01:03 (fourteen years ago) link
Jon is just upset because he is an engine driverrrrrrr.
― Evan, Monday, 1 March 2010 01:19 (fourteen years ago) link
Sorry guys, obviously I was being a bit of a dick earlier and I didn't intend to come across that way. I've just noticed this evolution in kshighway over the months and I found it to be a bit disappointing. I mean, he got ragged on a LOT when he first showed up for being overly excitable and earnest. Maybe its an inevitable part of the evolution of an ilxor, but he seemed to switch really quickly into snarky, jaded mode. Which was disappointing to me, because the earnestness was refreshing in a weird way. I just don't like new posters thinking that bitter snarkiness is the quickest way to fit in. I'd rather have new posters do their own thing!
Yeah, this is OTM generally, but I feel like there's been a few threads where he has backed down rather quickly. I think sometimes its important to just stick behind something you love, even if its an unpopular opinion. But maybe I was just misreading what he's been saying.
Anyway, just popping back in to apologize to ksh and everyone else if I came across like an ass. Really not the impression I like to make.
I'll blame Whiney for setting me on edge.
― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 1 March 2010 01:29 (fourteen years ago) link
:)
― stoke for the shawcross (acoleuthic), Monday, 1 March 2010 07:43 (fourteen years ago) link
"standing up for your opinions" vs "ceding to criticism" doesnt really map on to "earnest" vs "jaded" ime
― max, Monday, 1 March 2010 13:16 (fourteen years ago) link
"ceding" is kind of a loaded word imo - the whole point of having opinions is to have them grow & become more useful & interesting in the facilitation of dialogue & reflection, not to have creeds 'n' shit
― Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Monday, 1 March 2010 16:38 (fourteen years ago) link
that said, Led Zeppelin is still #1
i just mean that earnest posters are more likely to change their opinions or admit wrongdoing
― max, Monday, 1 March 2010 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link
cynical jaded posters are more likely to forgo having opinions in favor of zings
ok yeah I can dig it
― Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Monday, 1 March 2010 16:47 (fourteen years ago) link
makes the joanna newsom album sound like the lord of the rings movie trilogy (filmed at the same time, but released in three installments in three successive years). it's perfect in a way: lotr had unicorns, i think.
― Daniel, Esq., Monday, 1 March 2010 16:52 (fourteen years ago) link
(or at least it had orcs).
re jon's post
No problem, dude!
Regarding this:
I've just noticed this evolution in kshighway over the months and I found it to be a bit disappointing. I mean, he got ragged on a LOT when he first showed up for being overly excitable and earnest. Maybe its an inevitable part of the evolution of an ilxor, but he seemed to switch really quickly into snarky, jaded mode. Which was disappointing to me, because the earnestness was refreshing in a weird way. I just don't like new posters thinking that bitter snarkiness is the quickest way to fit in. I'd rather have new posters do their own thing!
Here's the thing. To some degree, new posters can't "do their own thing" here, and that's not their fault. For example, if I wanted to start an engaged, sincere discussion of Wilco right now, I almost couldn't, in part because ILM as a community has already discussed Wilco to death, and I came here too late to be a part of those discussions, but also in part because Wilco is a band that most ILMers, as far as I can tell, don't have time for. The ROI for me starting a thread on a lot of the stuff I like—see this thread—is so low that it's not worth it for me to bother. So, instead, I join in on the threads others have started about whatever band ILM's interested in talking about this week, and that's fine. I haven't abandoned my enthusiasm for Wilco, The Antlers, and whatever other indie acts I've been listening to for the past five years, but I don't talk about them here as much as I did when I started.
As far as the "jadedness" thing goes, I disagree: I don't think I'm jaded at all! Yeah, I've engaged in stuff like joking about Joanna Newsom and unicorns, but, at least in this thread, that's not because I want to "fit in," that's just because, when a thread I start takes a sharp turn into mocking someone I like and it looks like no one wants to actually talk about the music, my options are to either abandon the thread or just join in the joking around, and sometimes if I'm bored enough I'll just choose to join in. That doesn't mean I've started to dislike her because a lot of ILM dislikes her! I still love Ys, and I'm still interested in figuring out HOOM. But I can still find unicorn jokes funny even if I think they're kinda inaccurate, and I can laugh at stuff I like without turning my back on it.
I also think we have to agree that the dominant tone on a lot of threads is not just snarky but really, really rude. From the time I started posting as "kshighway," people called me a sock constantly, in part because I posted a lot about indie rock and had no idea what was going on here and had no idea what the tacit assumptions people held here were. Being here for some months now, I understand this place better. But a lot of the people who are actually jaded still show up to harass me, because that's just what happens here. Instead of flipping out about it all the time like when I first got here, I increasingly just try to ignore those people.
Anyway, that's not to say I haven't said anything that's snarky or jaded. I have. But I'm still enthusiastic about the stuff I like, and I don't think I'm a jaded person. Rock it.
― ksh, Monday, 1 March 2010 17:30 (fourteen years ago) link
rock on!
― Inculcate a spirit of serfdom in children (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 March 2010 17:45 (fourteen years ago) link
I like wilco
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 1 March 2010 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link
rude?
― Mr. Que, Monday, 1 March 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link