Joanna Newsom - Have One On Me (RIP blogs)

Nave to say, I am curious about what Whiney considers "real avant-garde."

the point being "not joanna newsom," unless you and turanga want to make the even more hilarious argument that this joanna album currently streaming on NPR is true american avantgarde then be my guest.

I don't really think Joanna Newsom is avant-garde at all, but I still really like her music. That being said, I do think some people think her music is much more experimental than it is, and yeah, it's easy to make fun of that.

No one in this thread ever claimed she is or was "avant-garde".

no one said it refered to anyone on this thread.

also

ok, i'll take back last thought since it's derailing the argument

― zvocksucker (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, February 28, 2010 2:24 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

No one in this thread ever claimed she is or was "avant-garde".

― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

What Whiney said: "no one said it refered to anyone on this thread."

"Although Joanna Newsom's Appalachian-meets-avant-garde take on folk music is her most celebrated work"
"Her songwriting incorporates elements of Appalachian music, and avant-garde modernism."
"Newsom's avant-garde meets harp meets alt folk meets art pop"
"Some say she’s just a unicorn-loving, harp-plucking faerie and others say the singer / songwriter / harpist is an avant-garde leader of the neo-folk scene."

http://www.google.com/search?q=";Joanna+Newsom"+avant-garde

I'm so confused. Now kshighway is actually defending Whiney's argument by pulling random google quotes.

My point was that it was ridiculous for Whiney to even bring up the "avant-garde" argument in the first place, no matter how much backpedaling he wants to do now.

No, no. I strongly dislike the new album. And as much as I love Ys, I don't think that is "avant-garde" and don't *need* to.

Releasing unfortunately overhyped albums of slightly less traditional songs =/= postulating yourself as Super Musical Genius whose fans can only possibly enjoy the music on those terms.

I don't really think Joanna Newsom is avant-garde at all, but I still really like her music. That being said, I do think some people think her music is much more experimental than it is, and yeah, it's easy to make fun of that.

― ksh, Sunday, February 28, 2010 2:37 PM

Was just pulling quotes from Google to demonstrate that some people consider her music avant-garde. I was not supporting Whiney's assertion upthread, which he has already abandoned three or four times now.

Also it's so weird to me how a lot of people hold MeM as the standard, as I think it's mostly a big pile of shit.

I don't think it's a "pile of shit," but I definitely think it looks slight next to Ys.

MeM is so good. I dunno. To me Milk-Eyed Mender always felt like when someone gets the right balance between traditional rock and out-weirdo elements. Like Sonic Youth's EVOL or Faith No More's Angel Dust. Ys and HOOM just seem like trying to hard to be a serious artist, yknow?

I think there's like, three good songs in that album and some of the others might be okayish but to me they're either unlistenable (e.g., cannot withstand one listen of studio "Peach, Plum, & Pear") or just... not that interesting.

I genuinely think she re-wrote much of Ys *around* VDP's arrangements and not the other way around and don't think I'd like those songs half as much without the additional harmonies & counterpoint.

xp i dont really hear that at all tbh

Ys and HOOM just seem like trying to hard to be a serious artist, yknow?

Yeah, she shouldn't try to do this.

Joanna Newsome Hamburgers Olympics

MeM is so good. I dunno. To me Milk-Eyed Mender always felt like when someone gets the right balance between traditional rock and out-weirdo elements. Like Sonic Youth's EVOL or Faith No More's Angel Dust. Ys and HOOM just seem like trying to hard to be a serious artist, yknow?

always weird to me when Whiney & me see almost completely eye-to-eye on something

at the same time, I really think it's awesome that she seems eager to challenge herself to grow, that it's a big part of who she is as an artist. but I am a keep-the-song-short kinda dude as is known. epic metal bands get a pass but generally speaking I'm more interested in compressed narratives/pieces, which MeM excelled in imo

i mean the "weird band grows increasingly more accessible" thing is VERY well-worn and familiar in indie music (Sonic Youth, White Zombie, Husker Du, Butthole Surfers, Jesus Lizard, Animal Collective, Deerhoof)

but the "popular artist growing increasingly stranger" is a little more rare and way harder to pull off

like joanna, i think Mastodon is another band who used to be great with simple weirdo-rock and are now just look silly trying to be a serious, art-prog band.

jeez u zvuck one cock and suddenly fools are mad reachin in their new dn

i haven't decided whether to start beefing with you yet

"popular artist growing increasingly stranger"

Am looking for this thread, am sure we've done it. lol Talk Talk amirite (also, Blur, sorta)

Scott Walker!

I actually think the new one is sort of casual stuff, not especially "serious artist"y, and if it were 35 minutes long rather than 125 minutes I doubt anyone would be making that claim. That said, I'm still unconvinced the new one had to be as long as it is, because I'm not sure how its length works to its benefit. It's not like it's some thrilling all over the place "Sign 'o the Times"/"Sandinista!" grab bag, or a particularly compelling song-cycle/narrative (you know, like Tori Amos' "Scarlet's Walk!"). I sort of wish it was, though it's also fine enough as it is. I'd be curious if anyone considers this the strongest of her three records, even though that's how it's been posited by much of the hyperbole. Then again: hyperbole.

Man, I have so much love for Ys, but I could see why some would prefer Mender.

Wilco did "avant-garde" better with YHF, tho. . . . . . . . . .

j/k

have one on me is the most accessible thing shes done, if you ask me.

i think the song length is really a red herring, esp. in the case of have on on me

If you're talking about her voice on it, sure. The production, sure. But it's three fucking discs long, I'm a huge fan, and it's difficult for even me to slog through.

Nah, I fully go with that statement. YHF is unfairly kicked these days, and has some (albeit isolated) moments of genuine avant-garde vision.

xxxp

I would be curious to know whether she thinks it's something to be listened to front-to-back.

three discs doesnt make her 'weird' or 'inaccessible' it just makes it long

If she sees this as a unified record to be listened to front-to-back, I think the fact that it is over two hours long is enough to make the record as a whole "inaccessible," even if its constituent parts aren't.

I see where you're coming from though.

i mean... 'inaccessible' in some sense? but thats not what were talking about is it? were talking about the arc of her career (pop --> weird vs. weird --> pop) or whatever. and even then its like... i dont think shes doing any of the things ppl are ascribing to her

haha whiney if it goes down msg me with an official declaration so's i'll know. is it true you took the hardman award home from TwitterCon???

I know Whiney abandoned the argument, but I think there's a legit discussion to be had about art school rock (or whatever they call it) v. "authentic" avant garde, and where Newsom falls into that spectrum

oh jesus pls don't say authentic even in scare quotes

haha yeah because your use of the word "real" last time around was way better

tbaa i don't think it matters much how schooled-on-a-remote-mountain my arty music is

tbaa = touched by an angel?

max I think "longer" does = "less accessible" to an extent - even, like, recall when Elvis Costello was making 20-song albums: it was asking a lot of a listener - even saying "look, you don't have to listen to it all at once" is kind of asking for more attention & engagement from the listener than a standard album, which is just, here's a known format, you know what to do, put it on and give it +/- three quarters of an hour, do other stuff while it spins, enjoy.

yeah sure

id just hope that there is more to the "joanna newsom is getting MORE weird" theory than "she released a triple LP"

she also puts ketchup on her oatmeal iirc

max is the only person who is making any sense in here--the album is broken up into three 6-song discs for those of us who still buy cds--it is extremely accessible.

all this talk of avant garde/artistic pretensions is insane--she's basically a folk singer.

doesn't really matter how many records its broken up across, it's still one piece

assuming we can still call HOOM qua collection of songs an album

like joanna, i think Mastodon is another band who used to be great with simple weirdo-rock and are now just look silly trying to be a serious, art-prog band.

― zvocksucker (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, February 28, 2010 3:14 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark

also this is wrong in a sense--mastodon has gotten compositionally more "serious" and "prog" but actually their music, part-to-part, is much less intricate. this is why they are an occasionally enjoyable, mor metal band now.