Science fiction

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"so what" is a perfectly valid response, I agree.

Pashmina, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

The ridiculous number of people emotionally-invested in making Buffy seem cleverer than it actually is always astounds me.

HI DERE, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,650 for "film noir". (0.09 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,870 for "professional wrestling". (0.13 seconds)

gff, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

You people are so dismissive of what you don't understand, which is why I'm arguing _against_ a culturally hegmonic approach to what is taken from popular culture into the academic field. I'm trying to help you.

-- Dom Passantino,

But Captain Passantino! What is this human thing you call critcal discourse?

Jesus Dom.

Anna, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:14 (fifteen years ago) link

I can't write an extended post at the moment, but I think this "Why professional wrestling makes for a more informed viewer than science fiction" thing needs expanding on. I will come back later.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:15 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 79 for "stone cold steve austin".
Results 1 - 10 of about 64 for "ashlee simpson"

Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:17 (fifteen years ago) link

Stone Cold Steve Austin had America's biggest selling t-shirt of the 1990s. The fact that he is only mentioned in 79 academic texts is another example of the failings of modern universities.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:17 (fifteen years ago) link

uh, I would think that the fact that he's mentioned in as many as 79 academic texts is a stronger example of the failings of modern universities

HI DERE, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 417 for "hulk hogan"
Results 1 - 10 of about 316 for "daleks".

Check that out.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Why so?

Results 1 - 10 of about 948 for "barry bonds". (0.17 seconds)

And that's from a sportsman who plays a (in world terms) minority sport. Stone Cold Steve Austin was the second biggest grossing US performer in the history of one of the few sports (alongside football, boxing, and track athletics) that has a legitimate worldwide fanbase.

xp

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:21 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "jimmy bullard".

BINGO!

Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,680 for giant haystacks. (0.37 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 13,900 for william riker. (0.19 seconds)

hmm

DG, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:22 (fifteen years ago) link

I think there's something more... honest about pro-wres than sci-fi.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:23 (fifteen years ago) link

Results 1 - 10 of about 18,800 for "jules verne". (0.12 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 6,640 for "isaac asimov". (0.38 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 8,930 for "william gibson". (0.19 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 37 for "rowdy roddy piper". (0.36 seconds)

gff, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:24 (fifteen years ago) link

if dramatically expunging evil is your bag then wrestling definitely gets er done

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:25 (fifteen years ago) link

Y'see, now you're trying to tar wrestling off with the "only rednecks watch it" brush. That's not helpful.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:26 (fifteen years ago) link

Look, some people like sci-fi, some people like oiled up muscled men grappling around in their pants, can't we all just get along?

Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:26 (fifteen years ago) link

There are people who think that wrestling is an ignoble sport. Wrestling is not a sport, it is a spectacle, and it is no more ignoble to attend a wrestled performance of Suffering than a performance of the sorrows of Arnolphe or Andromaque [Barthes here refers to characters in neo-classic French plays by Molière and Racine]. Of course, there exists a false wrestling, in which the participants unnecessarily go to great lengths to make a show of a fair fight; this is of no interest. True wrestling, wrong called amateur wrestling, is performed in second-rate halls, where the public spontaneously attunes itself to the spectacular nature of the contest, like the audience at a suburban cinema. Then these same people wax indignant because wrestling is a stage-managed sport (which ought, by the way, to mitigate its ignominy). The public is completely uninterested in knowing whether the contest is rigged or not, and rightly so; it abandons itself to the primary virtue of the spectacle, which is to abolish all motives and all consequences: what matters is not what it thinks but what it sees.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:26 (fifteen years ago) link

you've got your abstract right there dude

dan m, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:28 (fifteen years ago) link

wrestling is a closer relative of soaps and telenovela than anything else. uh xp

gff, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:29 (fifteen years ago) link

Wrestling _pre-dates_ both the soap opera and the telenovela.

Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:29 (fifteen years ago) link

this is the best simulation of an old ILX thread i've seen for ages, well done dom

DG, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:30 (fifteen years ago) link

is dom doing a tuomas?

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:31 (fifteen years ago) link

more like a muomas

DG, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:32 (fifteen years ago) link

2007 numbers for WWE (taken from wikipedia):

Revenue ▲ $485.7 million USD
Operating income ▲ $68.4 million USD
Net income ▲ $52.1 million USD

2006 numbers for MLB (taken from Plunkett Research):

Revenue
5.2 Bil. US$

Overall Operating Income
360 Mil. US$

I couldn't find net income.

So, you want to know why a currently-active marquee player embroiled in controversy from a massively more successful sport has more Google hits than a retired marquee player from less successful sport? Does this really need to be explained? And what does this have to do with your science fiction thesis in the first place?

HI DERE, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:35 (fifteen years ago) link

wrestling a dom thread is a closer relative of soaps and telenovela than anything else. uh xp

-- gff, Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:29 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

gff, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link

(And to go back to my previous dismissive, unless you are specifically studying the psychology behind professional sports or the historical and cultural repercussions of an event in a professional sport, like say the integration of leagues, I think any university that spends time studying any professional sport is doing its students a massive disservice.)

HI DERE, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:38 (fifteen years ago) link

I also think that if you like fiction in general, separating out the "science fiction" is a bit trickier than you might think.

This is a very good point. A lot of literary ficton creeps in the odd SF or fantasy device, tainting it with everything that Dom is against.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 16:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Any literary writer that does this usually spends the following year explaining how, even though their novel is set in the future and features imaginary technology it isn't SF because <insert any rant from upthread here>

Soukesian, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 17:26 (fifteen years ago) link

some ilxors sure do think a lot of themselves lately.

Disappointed ilx

Ste, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 17:48 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't really understand in what universe buffy the vampire slayer is 'science fiction' before it is three or four other things - 'horror', 'teen drama', whatever -

i actually think there's something worthwhile to be teased out of dom's hostility - which isn't all that ludicrous, really, given that there's at least four books on the philosophy of harry potter - which okay is also not fantasy - but, you know, fuckit

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:25 (fifteen years ago) link

barthes on wrestling.

Dy, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:26 (fifteen years ago) link

okay, a question: given that what happens in english departments HAS NO BEARING ON THE WIDER WORLD WHATSOEVERANDEVER, why does it matter that people are writing about buffy and not the wire?

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:26 (fifteen years ago) link

hey - our "OMG WINEHOUSE" exam made the national presses ;-)

Just got offed, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:27 (fifteen years ago) link

two things which are slightly tangled thus far:

i) the difference between the dangerous and hateful influence of SF in academia, and the (alleged) dangerous and hateful influence of it in the actual real world - no one seems to be addressing the latter

ii) the fact that the entity tracer and a bunch of others are calling 'science fiction' is historically, aesthetically, culturally different from the entity that dom is calling 'science fiction' (a bit like the difference between the entity barthes is discussing w/r/t wrestling and modern pro wrestling)

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:30 (fifteen years ago) link

... holy shit, you're oxbridge?

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:30 (fifteen years ago) link

that explains a thing

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:30 (fifteen years ago) link

Isn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer also a really creepy concept? A blonde-haired, blue-eyed devil killing racist caricatures of Jews?

Except Buffy (well, Sarah Michelle Gellar) is Jewish (as is Willow). And as for the head vampire, Spike...

http://www.partypro.com/mm_PARTYPRO_/Images/416X.JPG

^Nazi goth?

DavidM, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:36 (fifteen years ago) link

about to do a school shooting

DG, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Couple of points:

Sci-fi and fantasy basically being the same:

Well, that depends doesn't it? Space operas like Star Wars, sure. But gritty near-future stuff that extrapolates our present, making it twice as fucked-up couldn't be further from fantasy.

Also, the anti-sf points made in this thread have already been made years ago within sci-fi itself. Stories like Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream" and William Gibson's "Gernsback Continuum" fiercely satirise dodgy ideas like fear of the other or dreams of a perfect sanitised world. It's like saying "rock music is decadent" when musicians like Ian McKaye have already been banging on about that since forever.

Bodrick III, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:39 (fifteen years ago) link

I thing SF is OK as part of a balanced diet. ;)

Bodrick III, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:42 (fifteen years ago) link

think, even.

Bodrick III, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:42 (fifteen years ago) link

"the head vampire, Spike"

^^ plz watch show before joining argument. this goes all round really

thomp, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:43 (fifteen years ago) link

Nicole Johnson returns to Hazzard, she’s Bo’s ex-girlfriend who no one’s seen since a horrible wreck when she was the only female driver racing in Nascar. This devastated both her and Bo because she decided to break up with him due to the wreck messing up her face. During yet another feud with Roscoe and Boss Hog a mysterious woman helps Bo during a race when Luke is in Atlanta. Bo finds the woman in a car that was hit during the chase. Bo gets hurt during the chase when a bullet from Roscoe’s gun hits his arm then the woman has to get them out of harms way. At first, she looks scared and hesitant about driving The General. But then she totally changes and drives like a professional. She even has to do a big jump over abridge that was out. Bo looks deep in her eyes and he has a feeling that he knows her. When Bo starts slipping in and out of conscieneness, he hears the woman, “Come on, Bo-Bo, stay with me.” The last thought he had was ‘Nicole?’

When Bo woke up, he was surrounded by his family, Jesse, Daisy and Luke. His voice was soft. “Where is she?”

“Who?” Jesse asked.

“Nicole?”

“Nicole isn’t here, Bo.” Luke stated.

“How’d I get here?” Bo asked. The family really didn’t know.

“We don’t know Bo, the hospital called and they told us that someone brought you in here yesterday. They told us that they told them all of your information, name, birth date, hometown, birth place, they had to get your social security number from Jessed, though. The person even knew your allergic reactions to Penicillin. A nurse walked in.

“Excuse m. I need you to step out for a minute.”

“Yes Ma’am.” Jessed states. They all walk out. The nurse had to change all the bandages on Bo’s arm.

“Tell me I’m not crazy.” Bo states.

“Excuse me, sir?”

“Who brought me here, what did she look like?”

“She had hair that fell right past her shoulders, it was a very nice shade of red. She was normal height, I’d say she came up to your nose. And she had the most piercing green eyes I’ve ever seen. And I can’t place it, but I’ve seen her some where. I want to say televison, but I didn’t get a good look at her cause I was just browsing through channels.” She finished the story and the bandaging.

“Thanks.”

“You’re welcome, beep me if you need anything.”

Bo was discharged 2 days later.

--

Bo was tired of watching King of the Hill. “Come on Luke, please turn it!”

“Ok, geez.” The channel flipped a couple times.

“Luke, go back!” Bo stated. Luke turned back a couple times.

‘In other news, ex-WWE Diva Nicole Earnhardt and Dale Earnhardt have decided to divorce.’

“That’s her, that’s the girl who rescued me.”

Luke’s eyes were fixed on the tv. “Nicole, a 7 time WWE Women’s Champion, who first made it into news when a porn video leaked with ex-boyfriend, WWE Champion, John Cena, met Dale at a wrestling event he attended. They have been married 2 years, but agreed it wasn’t working out. The divorce went through yesterday, Nicole recently moved back to her house in Atlanta, Georgia.” The camera moved to a picture of Nicole, her green eyes lit up the screen.

“I’m going to Atlanta,” Bo said bluntly.

“Come on Bo, you’re going purely on the fact that this Nicole girl purely has green eyes. That looks nothing like her.”

Bo cut him off. “Luke, I have to do this...something’s dragging me toward this girl.”

“Ok, do you want me to come with you?”

“No offense Cuz, but I think this is something that I have to do alone.”

Luke nodded to Bo and with that, Bo grabbed the keys to The General and started his drive out of Hazzard. Once in Atlanta, Bo stopped at a convience store and went over to the phone booth and looked up the last name Johnson. No Nicole’s but there was a Nikki and a Christina and Bo knew it wasn’t Christina, even though that was her middle name, he knew that she hated it. He dialed the number for Nikki Johnson, but it turned out to a little old lady. He looked up Earnhardt, but they were all men. Then something hit Bo, Nicole’s parents had gotten a divorce, he remembered her telling him about it, he looked up Williams, and got the address of 2 Nicole Williams’. He drove to the first location, when he pulled towards the house, he realized that the house belonged to a little old lady. Bo climbed back into The General and drove to the second house, Bo stopped the car and climbed out. He knocked on the door and didn’t get an answer. He walked towards the back, he was shocked at what he saw. Sitting in front of him was a 1969 Dodge Charger, it was baby blue and had an eagle on the roof. He heard music coming from the garage, the door was open and he walked quietly in, just in case this wasn’t Nicole, but he had a feeling it was. As he got closer he noticed that the song playing was, Flirtin’ With Disaster, by Molly Hatchet. He stood at the door and watched as the woman was writing something. As the song ended she quicky switched it to a slower song. Bo then knew that it was Nicole, this was their song when they broke up and got back together. He listened closely to the words.

I’m lying alone with my hand on the phone.

Thinking of you til it hurts.

I know you hurt too, but what else could we do?

I wish I could carry my smile in my heart at times when my life sees so low.

It would make me believe what tomorrow could bring when today doesn’t really know.

Does it really know?

Bo listened as Nicole started to sing the woman’s chorus.

I’m all out of love.

I’m so lost without you.

I know you were right.

Believing for so long.

I’m all out of love.

What am I without you?

I can’t bee to late to say that I was so wrong.

Bo started to sing along with the male chorus.

I want you to come back and carry me home.

Away from these long lonely nights.

I’m reaching for you.

Are you feeling it too?

Does the feeling feel oh so right?

The woman froze, “How, how’d you find me?” She finally looked behind her.

“I used the phonebook, I looked up your dad’s last name. Why have you been hiding all this time?”

“Well, during the wreck, my face got burnt and I had to wait 6 months for the surgery. After that I looked totally different, I felt that I wouldn’t be who you fell in love with. So after that, I entered a WWE Diva search contest, and became a diva on Raw and in 2 ½ years, I’ve been the WWE Women’s champion, made a porn video, married a Nascar driver, and gotten a divorce, nice story isn’t it?”

“I fell in love with what’s one the inside.”

Nicole smiled, “I love you, Bo-Bo, I never stopped.” She stepped closer to Bo and kissed him.

“I love you too, Cole!” It’s been forever since I heard that name, Beauregard!”

Bo smiled, “You’re lucky you’re the only one who can call me that.” Bo returned a kiss to Nicole. Bo looked at the table and noticed a check and a for sale sign. Nicole saw him and smiled.

“I sold my house. Everything’s moved out already, the only things I even kept are my radio, DVDs, Cds, movies, clothes, my title replica, pictures, computer, and of course Blue. I built her myself.”

“She’s beautiful.”

“Thanks.”

“But you still have her beat.” Nicole smiled.

“Do you still have this?” Bo showed her a small tattoo, his said Cole and his was on his right arm. She smiled and showed him her right shoulder blade and a tattoo that read Bo - Bo.

“I’m moving back to Hazzard,” she finally added.

Bo smiled, “That’s wonderful, would you like to move in with me?”

“I’d love to, but would Uncle Jesse care?”

“He wouldn’t mind, he’s always considered you family.” Nicole jumped into Bo’s arms.

“Let’s go now.”

“But how are we going to take both cars?”

“I’ve got Katie’s truck. She’s got one of those switches that hooks to cars, or there is that other way.”

“Race?” Nicole nodded.

“Race.” They said together.

He walked up to Blue first, “One thing?” He tried to open the door, it wouldn’t budge. “Nice.” He stated, they kissed and they both climbed into their cars.

“One more thing Bo.” Nicole stated.

“What?”

She hit the horn and the opening lines from Dixie played, Bo did the same with The General. Nicole cranked her car and Flirtin’ With Disaster blared out of the speakers. She hit the horn and was out. Bo smiled and followed.

- - - -

Nicole pulled into the Duke’s Driveway a few seconds before Bo Did. Nicole saw Luke and decided to play with him, Bo knew what she was doing and he went along with it.

“Bo, thanks again for not telling anyone about the gun. I didn’t mean to shoot that old lady.”

“Shoot Who?!” Luke yelled.

“Lukie Dukie, shut up.”

“Nicole, wow, you’ve changed.”

“Yeah and you haven’t.”

She and Bo smiled.

“Hea, nice car.”

“Thanks, Blue is my baby, well my second baby.” Nicole said smiling to Bo. He returned the smile. Then Uncle Jesse and Daisy came out of the house to see what the commotion was about.

“Bo? Luke? What’s going on?” Jesse asked.

“Who’s your friend, you’re not going to introduce her to us?” Daisy asked. Nicole laughed. Bo followed.

“Guys, you have met her. Uncle Jesse, Daisy, say hello to Nicole.”

They both did a double take. “Nicole, you look awesome.” Daisy stated.

“What’s got you back in Hazzard?” Jesse asked. Nicole smiled and looked at Bo.

“I’ve realized what I’ve been missing.” They grabbed hands and gave each other a small kiss. “I’m thinking about building a new house.”

“You will not do such a thing. We have an extra room, you and Bo can share it until you’re really ready to have your own place. That’s a lot better than sleeping in the same room as him and Luke.”

“Finally, I can have top Bunk!” Luke proclaimed getting a laugh out of everybody.

“Thanks Uncle Jesse, but I don’t want to make it harder for y’all.”

“You won’t make it harder, you’ve been part of this family for at least 10 years, it’s the least I can do.”

Nicole hugged the older man. “Luke, will you be a dear and get the boxes out of my car.”

“Of course I will, because if I didn’t, you’ll kick my ass.”

“True,” Bo and Nicole said at the exact same time. After dinner Nicole and Bo decided to sit out by the pond, they always gazed at the stars, ever since they’ve been together. Bo broke the silence.

“Remember how we used to act like we hated each other?” Nicole smiled.

“Yeah, you admitted you liked me and I punched ya, you had a black eye for a week.”

“It was worth it, you felt sorry for me and you admitted that you liked me too.”

“I guess you could truly say we’ve kind of been together ever since.” Nicole added. “The whole time I was away, being with John Cena and Dale, all I thought about was you.”

“Did you love them?”

“I think I loved Dale for the first couple months, then I realized what I was missing, here. John was only there when I was lonely and well you know what that lead to. Bo, I’ve always loved you and I’ll never stop.”

“Marry me.”

“Huh?”

“Marry me Nicole, not right now, maybe a couple months down the line, I want you to be mine forever, I’ll get you a ring tomorrow.”

Nicole nodded, crying, “Ok.”

Bo collapsed his lips onto hers. They got caught up in the moment and didn’t want anyone to see them and didn’t want to wake anyone.

Nicole looked at the barn and smiled, Bo caught it.

“You remember how much fun he had in there?” Bo winked.

They walked towards the barn, “Bo, as many times that we’ve done it in here, how come we’ve never done it in The General?”

Bo lowered his head down to capture Nicole’s lips, while his hands were working on removing her Pink Boar’s Nest Tank Top. Nicole worked on removing his Lynard Skynard Shirt. Bo looked down at her and captured her lips again, Nicole slowly moved down to his belt buckle and helped him out of the pants. Bo then returned the favor to her helping her out of her shorts. She then kicked off her boots. Bo kicked off his shoes. Nicole grabbed, Lil Bo, and smiled up to Bo, who took a breath. Nicole lowered her mouth around Lil Bo, and worked him in her mouth until she felt him tense up. Bo pushed Nicole towards The General and removed her hipster underwear and proceeded to return the favor to her, when he thought she couldn’t take it anymore, he quit. Nicole pushed Bo towards The General and pushed him into the front seat. She smiled as she straddled his waist and guided him into her. After 10 minutes of going up and down, Nicole bit her lip, then kissed Bo. She placed her head on his shoulder and grabbed his hand and cried out, “Oh Bo!”

A couple seconds later, Bo followed. “I Love you.” Bo breathed out.

“I love you too.” Nicole added and they kissed again. They went back into the house, both showered and went to sleep.

- - - - -

The next morning, Bo woke up all tangled up in covers, with a pair of long legs wrapped up with his and he loved the way it felt. He kissed Nicole on the forehead.

“Umm, good morning.” She said.

“Good morning, sleep good?”

She nodded. “What we doing today?

“Whatever you wanna do?”

Nicole smiled, “Well how about driving.”

Bo smiled. “Driving what?”

“Me driving The General, that is the car that I learned to drive in, you know?”

Bo smirked, “Whatever you want do, is good with me, Cole.”

They started their drive and like always Roscoe tried to arrest them. “That fat sack of shit...should I teach them not to mess with a Duke?”

“Huh?”

“Well sooner or later, I’ll be a Duke anyway.” Nicole said with a smile.

“You ready, Bo.”

“Yeah, Cole.”

They grabbed each other’s hands and did a little handshake and Nicole sped away. And of course, they came up to the Dingleman Bridge warning sign and Nicole jumped it with ease.

- - - - -

2 Months Later:

Nicole looked spaced out today. Bo could tell. “Cole, what’s wrong?”

Nicole looked at Bo blankly. “I’m pregnant.”

Bo blinked, that’s all he could do, until he noticed tears in Nicole’s eyes. “Cole, honey, I’m not mad. I’m shocked and excited.

“You are?”

“Yes, you’re going to give me a son of a daughter. I love you so much.”

Nicole cried again, this time happy tears. “I know.”

They went to City Hall, that day and got married.

- - - - -

latebloomer, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:47 (fifteen years ago) link

Well, more Gruppenführer who eventually defects.

DavidM, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 18:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Junky Fresh Prince and breast-man ALF get mad lolz, btw.

Bodrick III, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 20:48 (fifteen years ago) link

I'm gonna come back and read this thread properly cos I love sci-fi, but WTF, why are people calling Buffy science fiction?
Where's the _science_ part of that?!?!?!?!?!

mei, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 22:45 (fifteen years ago) link

Yeah, I hate about 98% of it. The 2% that I don't hate: the first three or four Dune books.

Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 3 June 2008 22:47 (fifteen years ago) link

Dune is probably the closest thing to space opera/fantasy sci-fi that I could actually sit down and read. Some of the philosophical elements of it are quite interesting, mind over matter and all that.

Bodrick III, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 22:54 (fifteen years ago) link

what the shit, dune is near unreadable nutjobbery.

ledge, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 22:55 (fifteen years ago) link


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