Grant Morrison S/D

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rock of ages is ok but i can't deal with the art. leee i'm willing to trade you for it if you have anything i like!!

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 15 April 2006 19:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't actually have ROA! I read a library copy, actually.

c(''c) (Leee), Saturday, 15 April 2006 19:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Best mainstream comic ever! (Or at least most thrillpowered...)

Amazon dopes hate it b/c it violates narrative conventions: the story interrupts itself halfway through and goes in a completely different direction and it's the most Morrisony JLA trade, in terms of the density, Invisibles references (Darkseid invades in 2012, the same year of the end of earth in Invisibles and Terrence McKenna, etc.) and lyrical weirdness (GL is on the grail quest and, standing in a forest of dead superheroes made out of stone, and he tells the new Hourman that he dreamt he was in a field where all his desires have come true, but then notices that everything is green).

kenchen, Saturday, 15 April 2006 20:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm glad you were able to find some good drugs in Mke, Chris. :>

Yah, this city is great-- I'm so glad that it's my home town! (I'm a Cancer, BTW-- and yes, reading your horoscope in the weekly paper for shits and giggles sometimes is a part of dopey Morrisonmania.) Pt. 2 of My Greatest Adventure today has been even more exciting so far-- I just got back from hiking through the labyrinth at Grant Park down on the South Side. It happens to be the case that one of the Seven Bridges there is down for repairs, so I decided to hack my own way out on the hike back...

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:18 (eighteen years ago) link

no lee i got it if you want to trade FOR it.

personally i think the art is awful and the story is terribly paced (no tension, all release) but there's some neat stuff in it for sure.

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm virtually blind, so I beg your pardon s1ocki! I'll hit up your email.

c(''c) (Leee), Saturday, 15 April 2006 21:52 (eighteen years ago) link

It's probably my favourite of the JLA storylines, the balance of re-using old ideas and great new ones and campy enjoyment (one of the covers has Batman yelling "Superman, stop! Luthor must escape or the Earth is doomed!") is perfect. It's certainly a excellent one to give people to see whether they'd like the whole series. The only other one that comes close (though they're all great) is World War III, because he does such fantastic endings.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Saturday, 15 April 2006 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I remember someone here once complaining that some comic just felt like kids playing with action figures - "and then they FITE and he's dead but NOT REALLY HA HA and then they ride DRAGONS!" and such - and that made me instantly think of "Rock Of Ages". It's good, but I'd be wary of over-hyping it, especially with the *wrong* kind of hype (i.e. emphasizing the Grant Morrison as Comic's Greatest Living Storyteller idea and minimizing the camp aspect.)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 16 April 2006 10:01 (eighteen years ago) link

I started my rereading of DP last night-- made it halfway through the first storyline before it was time to go to bed. I was thinking of doing an "exegesis" of DP as a writing project last summer and now I'm rather glad I didn't, as it would have been a little bit premature! Reading "Crawling From the Wreckage" with the Scissormen as the baddies right after seeing The Matrix with the Agents as same makes me think that The Invisibles isn't the only GM comic that got borrowed from in its making. It's really amazing when you think about it-- not only do the DP have to defend reality from incursions by the notional world, but they have to defend real life from mechanization, all while sorting through their own issues and discovering the real possibilities and potentials of human life: Rebis, with hir unification of dualities through an application of spirit, discovering eternal life and a world of infinite possibilities for discovery and amusement as a result; Jane, with her 64 real possibilities of human action/character unified behind one purpose, discovering that "what normal people have" isn't necessarily so great; and Cliff, overcoming the mind/body divide by becoming one integrated mechanism, discovering that what it means to be really human has everything to do with humane action and nothing to do with clinging to preconceptions and idealizations.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Sunday, 16 April 2006 16:28 (eighteen years ago) link

the *wrong* kind of hype (i.e. emphasizing the Grant Morrison as Comic's Greatest Living Storyteller idea and minimizing the camp aspect

Yeah, the camp aspect is part of the fun of Grant Morrison, storyteller. I'm reminded of something Morrissey said in interview on the New York Doll DVD-- everybody has one artist that hit them at the right time growing up and who can never disappoint them. GM is certainly it for me, but that doesn't mean that I'd make his comics mandatory reading for everybody on the planet, or even everybody on ILC (though I don't know if there's anyone here who doesn't read his stuff at this point).

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Sunday, 16 April 2006 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link

I read some of Morrison's projects, but I'm not reading Seven Soldiers, and I doubt I'll be reading his Batman.

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 17 April 2006 04:36 (seventeen years ago) link

I read some of Morrison's projects

Which ones? I wanna read his Batman just because I'm thinking that his take on it is going to avoid the sort of "fascist" exclusion-from-the-human-race thing that Tuomas seems to be so worried about in regards to superheroes. I bet it's going to be fun-- hopefully they're'll be more "Batman thinks of everything" hijinx as well as science closet goodness.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 08:25 (seventeen years ago) link

"They're'll be"? Definitely time to stop for the night...

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 08:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Off the top of my head:

Animal Man
Seaguy
We3
most of New X-Men
one trade of Doom Patrol
one or two trades of JLA
the first half of the Filth
one trade of the Invisibles
Arkham Asylum

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 17 April 2006 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Hmm. So what were your favorites and why, and what made you not want to read Seven Soldiers? Initially, I wasn't going to buy it either-- I was being a cheapskate though.

In other news, it feels like I'm embarking on a mature reading of DP finally as I wade through this stuff. "Exegesis" is stupid though-- it's better when it's unpacked but still not made explicit. Mum's the word from me on this shite from here on out, except to say that I'm cool with the ending of #63 again.

Chris Freiberg (Chris F.), Monday, 17 April 2006 22:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Really Liked: Animal Man, We3.
Kinda Liked: New X-Men, Doom Patrol.
Didn't Really Like: The rest.

Morrison's hit-and-miss for me, so I tend to pick up his comics only if it sounds like an interesting idea. I liked the idea of Seven Soldiers' structure, the 7 interlocking mini-series, but I never heard much about what it was actually about. I tend to only buy comics that I'm definitely interested in - I'm also a cheapskate. I picked up the first issue of Shining Knight after hearing good things, but I didn't think it was all that good, so I stopped there. I'll probably read Seven Soldiers if the library gets the trades, but I'm not going to buy them.

The Yellow Kid, Tuesday, 18 April 2006 03:49 (seventeen years ago) link

I think Shining Knight is the worst part of Seven Soldiers so far. I've read the first two trades and like Klarion and Manhattan Guardian a lot, Zatanna pretty good, and Shining Knight not so much.

sheep sheet (serious sheet), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Spot on there, Sheep.

chap who would dare to be a stone cold thug (chap), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Mr Miracle was far worse than Shining Knight (the art in SK was completely incoherent but pretty, whereas MM is merely incoherent, combined with being inconsistent thanks to DC [also censored])

kit brash (kit brash), Tuesday, 18 April 2006 22:53 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought MM was incoherent the first time I read it too. Then I went back and re-read the whole thing, with some help from the discussion on Barbelith. A friend of mine asked me what the hell was going on in #4, and I sent him this:

Cover: Note that, as with the other #4 issues in 7S, MM is escaping. ("Free at last": talk about polyvalent.) Note also that the perspective is really wonky: what we are seeing is not an angle shot, but an _angle shot of_ an angle shot--that is, a 2-D look at a 2-D image that has been rotated away from us. The picture plane is really important here, as it is in e.g. Zatanna.

Pg. 1: Young Shilo, before his brother's death, practicing escapism. Hmm. Escapism.

Pg. 2: Crippled, castrated Fisher-King Shilo, ODing on pills.

Pg. 3: Following Shilo's death, Omega shows him another life path (in which Aaron never died and he never became an escape artist).

Pg. 4: This life is zooming toward its conclusion (the kids are older)...

Pg. 5: And faster. Rabbi Dezard is of course Desaad; Shilo's granddaughter is Ms. Miracle... and of course the menorah is a commemoration of a miracle, & of something that lasted much longer than it should have... but Shilo realizes this isn't his life. Death, again, is the escape from the Life Trap.

Pg. 6: Back to Pg. 1 scenario. Several years later, Shilo sees Aaron killed (this is shortly before Shilo was introduced in Jack Kirby's Mister Miracle #15). That _is_ Shilo's real life.

Pg. 7: Sort of Shilo's real life: he and Dina worked on the Slab. But not his real life: he wasn't the warden.

Pg. 8: Oracle is the all-seeing one who appeared in Justice League of America #100-102 (the original Silver Age Seven Soldiers story, also alluded to in Bulleteer #2 etc.). "The spear" may be "the spear that never was thrown" (see Guardian #4 and Bulleteer #4). The chained god was also talked about in Klarion #4 and Guardian #2.

Pg. 9: The God Exterminators are Darkseid and Desaad, of course.

Pg. 10: "Aurakles": cf. Shining Knight 3, and the bit about the Sword of Aurakles.

Pg. 11: Shilo gives his life to free Oracle.

Pg. 12: Mother Box's soul escaped into Shilo, who is still going through "the life trap": one life after another...

Pg. 13: ...like this one: Infinite Crisis, and dead superheroes everywhere. Then a flashback to the Pg. 1/6 scene, then back to the aftermath of IC: Shilo's dead. Then another life trap, in which Shilo's been shot in the head. Back to the Shilo-as-kid scene.

Pg. 14: Much speculation on Barbelith to the effect that "the fundamental force that is restriction" is the comic book page...

Pg. 15:... and the printed page's picture plane is "the prison you can never escape." (Check out the Metron scene in #1 again: lots of freaky picture-plane stuff going on there, of the same kind we see in Zatanna #1 and 4.)

Pg. 16: More "continuities," more deaths for Shilo: drowning in a car; dying as an infant; a heart attack; throwing himself in front of the bullets that killed Aaron; old age... but as he says "you're right here with me," he's in precisely the same pose he was in in MM #1, pg. 3, panel 2.

Pg. 17: "Representing something that's in all of us": superhero comics characters are about escape!

Pg. 18: One more life: Shilo _younger_ than he was when Aaron died, completing his initiation at the hands of Metron. Guilt, as we learned in Shining Knight, is a Sheeda mind destroyer; overcome it and you escape the trap.

Pg. 19: Same dialogue in Panel 1 as in #1 pg. 6. So yes, in the final "continuity" he has been in the black hole for the seven days 7S takes place over, but he's ALSO been having all of these lives during his initiation--which is how e.g. he encountered the cab from Klarion and Jake Jordan making his marriage proposal in MM #3. (Note that he didn't _affect_ any of that stuff, but it was happening; as of now, he was no longer present during those events.) And now his "true life" begins.

Pg. 20: The "big storm" is Hurricane Gloria/Gloriana.

Pg. 21: Back to the pg. 1/6/13 thing: looks like he got out, and his brother bought him that chocolate sundae he promised him. Note that this is the first page of the ENTIRE SERIES that isn't dark and/or dark-bordered, and how this compares to the final pages of previous chapters, all full-page splashes: #1 is in a rotated picture plane (w/ same weird perspective trick as this issue's cover), surrounded by darkness, even!

Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 00:18 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah I know what *happens* in it (though that's way more detailed than I'd bothered to pick up on a single bimonth-by-bimonth reading), it's just that the art's rubbish, making it painful to try and parse! (and all that about the restriction of the page etc SO UNDERLINES the stupidity of DC censorship)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 02:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Wait, the "censorship" you're talking about is the Metron double-page spread that was originally going to have hands holding it visible at the bottom? Do we know that that was a DC corporate decision and not a late-in-the-game Morrison decision, or have any idea why DC would do that?

Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 04:01 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, I'm attributing it to DC because I have no idea why Morrison would do that, especially given the thought-balloon-reading and panel-tearing that happened in the next two SS issues that came out (I probably go on about this upthread somewhere!)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 06:43 (seventeen years ago) link

no I don't, but I bet I'm grumbling away on some Seven Soldiers thread

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 07:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Which is probably where you'll find me pointing out that people who hate the art don't deserve eyes.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 07:53 (seventeen years ago) link

The first filler art guy was pretty wretched, but the one after him was fine. I'm not sure if I get the "picture plane" stuff on the cover of MM #4 that Douglas mentions, but I'll go back and have a look.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 08:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Can we talk more about "The New Adventures of Adolf Hitler"? I never saw it all, but it has some of my favourite ever bits in comics, like AH being followed by a bus, or him imagining that his cup of tea is the Holy Grail (and then wishing that Jesus had been born in Bavaria because he would have looked good in Lederhosen).

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 10:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Can I ask a question or two about Mr Miracle? What happened to Scott Free? And what was the situation of the New Gods before this GM comic?

I just reread all but the last two Seven Soldiers comics, and loved them far more on a reread than first time - the intricacy of the interlinking is breathtaking, and I hope the ending does the job.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

(x-post insert: SS is post-Finite Crisis, so who knows about Scott Free and New Gods and history of Shilo.)

NAOAH is in the Top Three Grant Morrison Comics Ever, and possibly the best-coloured comic I have ever read (even more amazing because IIRC it was originally going to be in b&w in Cut! though I guess that's why the Crisis colourist felt free to go wild and paint shit through the entire background of a panel or fill things with wallpaper patterns or whatever)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:33 (seventeen years ago) link

kit, two of my friends did the colouring on NAOAH and afaik you're the first person to EVER notice or remark on the incredible job that they did - my fave page is the one w/ a gigantic pic of manson in the b/g, swastika carved into his forehead - colouring as commentary!

Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 12:46 (seventeen years ago) link

kiss them for me! I've been adoring that since I was 13 or whatever (were they even credited?)

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 13:14 (seventeen years ago) link

i think so - st*ve whitak*r and n*ck abadz*s, plus another pal of n's helping 'em out, tho maybe they all took a joint psuedo-credit - all done pre-computer, obv, i remember them spending hours on fiddly hand cutouts and whatnot - sadly the fuss w/ Cut and that knob Pat Kane kind've overshadowed everything else abt NAOAH (which I agree is one of Morrison's best strips)

Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 13:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, how does one get a copy of this?

kenchen, Wednesday, 19 April 2006 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

The guy who did Hugo Tate? Coool.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 15:19 (seventeen years ago) link

New Adventures of Hitler? Need to find a digital copy, likely. Never seen it in the states.

Which is to say, if anyone has it and wants to mail it to little old me, please get in touch. Ta.

Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:09 (seventeen years ago) link

This is my real email address. I'm just saying.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Same here. Except for the, uh, "uh."

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Me3

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I dare say it was a pseudo-credit, I probably would have noticed Ab@dzis' name when I re-read it in the '90s sometime.

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I fucking had this, I know I did. And when I went looking for it to forward it, where is it?

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 20:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I too am interested in this New Adventures of Adolph Hitler. I'm a casual Morrison geek and hadn't heard of it until this thread.

Telephonething (Telephonething), Thursday, 20 April 2006 00:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I've got it, I can sort something out tonight if people are still HUNGRY FOR HITLER.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 April 2006 08:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I only read bits of it in "Cut" (in colour, I think), and then was in my skint phase when it appeared in "Crisis", so I've never read it all.

The controversy around it was half the fun. It's always great watching po-faced twunts get excited about things.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 20 April 2006 08:28 (seventeen years ago) link

hi tom, I am hungry for hitler!!

dave k, Thursday, 20 April 2006 12:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm craving Adolph myself.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I think I might put him in a hidden bunker webpage.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Ditto. (xp!)

pixel farmer (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm on antibiotics (root canal) and the prescription clearly reads "Take With Food (Hitler, pref.)"

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 20 April 2006 13:49 (seventeen years ago) link

If you don't let me in on the secret Hitler site, MAGGOT WILL DIE!

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 20 April 2006 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link


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