jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

Cool man, so long as I don't have to worry about farfalle.

ha i think we shd just take a hard line w/ these ppl and just say, look, you may be right, but i don't give a shit. let's say vaccines cause (or "cause") autism in some very small fraction of kids, that's the price we all pay to make sure none of us is dying of fucking TB anymore. cost benefit, you lose, sorry, you're not special.

but i'm kind of a nazi abt that. or a leninist, maybe.

the more i think about it, the more diabetes type 1 is an interesting contrast:

we know that its etiology stems from an autoimmune rxn that destroys pancreatic beta cells, which means no more insulin. we're not REALLY sure what sparks that reaction, because, you know, the immune system is ~weird~

consequently, we spend time and research $$$ looking into the cause, but really mostly we care about the management. because unless we can someday pinpoint the fucking galaxy of possible environmental factors that "cause" DMT1, we shouldn't worry too much about preventing it. vague polygenic factors + obscure environmental factors = \(°_°)/

better to focus on how to ~manage~ it, which we're getting pretty good at. however, daily injections won't "manage" autism. it's weird and inscrutable and it scares us. a child that develops DMT1 is still a "normal" kid, they're just "sick" and you have to teach them to watch their sugars. you can't do that with autism.

honestly, i think that's another sort of ugly thing that underwrites the anti-vaxx movement: the stigma of mental/neurological pathology. raising a kid with DMT1 is a hard row to hoe, but by god we'll manage it, we're PARENTS and that's what PARENTS do. but sweet mother of god what if our kids gets AUTISM, that would just be awful (for us, who are scared and can't imagine dealing with that).

and yeah, goole, i'm hardline, too. to an extent.

IF we can definitively trace the development of autism to one specific thing, in one specific vaccine (either the adjuvant or the viral/bacterial stuff), that, in the presence of an underlying genetic pathology (which will likely be known already!), then what i'd be comfortable with a very very small (and easily identifiable!) patient population pursuing a different course of vaccination.

which is something we already do with kids that are immunocompromised!

but as long as the anti-vaxx ppl keep suggesting that it is VACCINES that are the problem and not (presumably) some tiny cohort's (likely inevitable) autoimmune reaction, then they will continue to be endanger (in a v real, medical, possibly life or death way) far more children than they purport to be protecting (from a mental illness that does not, as far as i know, kill anyone).

btw just read that temple grandin thing and basically she is otm. esp this

Grandin does say "I think there's something going on with some type of environmental contaminant." She adds, "I think we are going to be hearing more about epigenetics and autism [...] How things like toxins and diet and other things turn on the switches that regulate how certain genes are expressed."

JMcC et al will be inclined to latch onto this, but srsly this is right on. Autism is weird and complex and w/e and we'll continue looking into it but mostly we should focus on how to raise autistic children well, not on "curing" them.

ok i have spent waaaay too much time on this, lol midterm on friday :(

but you have done good work here with your OTMness!

yes, you are killin it gbx

i could go look at pubmed i guess but i assume there have been like, retrospective cohorts & case-controls done with this kind of stuff?

Hahaha I was in a small group just now but we were just talking about this. It was led by a pediatrician and she was just like "Thank God, you do not know how many hours I have wasted futilely trying to argue with these people". Getting a pediatrician to talk about vaccine truthers is guaranteed to be awesome, btw, unless it is one of the bad ones who believes that crap somehow.

That article about autism incidence in L.A. kind of angers me, weirdly, since tbh the Autism bubble is nowhere near as widespread and serious a problem as the map of asthma incidence that snakes up the 710 freeway.

^^^ well that is the thing, tho, isn't it!

ppl are terrified---TERRIFIED---of their child developing something that falls anywhere on the autistic spectrum, but are very willing to expose their children to any number of other environmental threats that MIGHT KILL THEM. vaccine? just say no to autism! drink all the mountain dews? w/e. care enough to get riled up about evil vaccine manufacturers that want to kill yr children for profit? write a letter, go on TV! get upset by the intimate relationship between poverty and poor health? *cracks a mountain dew*

the autism thing is just ~frustrating~ on a level that i really cant articulate esp because im very interested in own small way in autoimmune rxns to environmental stressors and so much ~work~ and time and energy is getting put into debunking completely retarded theories its just ugh

get upset by the intimate relationship between poverty and poor health? *cracks a mountain dew*

ha im sure ive posted abt this before but it KILLS ME that its so hard to get ppl interested/concerned/upset abt major systemic problems in how health care is delivered and yet ppl refuse their kids vaccinations its just urrrrrrgh

I believe that the public lynching and shaming of Dr. Wakefield is unwarranted and overwrought, and that history will ultimately judge who was right and who was wrong about proposing a possible association between vaccination and regressive autistic spectrum disorder (ASD).

lol sub-bush

To be fair I have had so much soda in my lifetime (I am having a Cherry Coke Zero now!) that if someone tried to speak ill of Mountain Dew in front of me I would be all defensive. "Maybe I WANT to get diabetes!" Plus as long as they are selling Mt Dew Throwback (with an old-timey dude on the can!) I can convince myself that sugar instead of corn syrup makes it OK.

Actually the small group we just had was for Evidence-Based Medicine class, it was a meta-analysis of stroke risk associated with oral contraceptives, and it ended up being that about 400 extra strokes per year are associated with oral contraceptive use instead of condoms, but if all those people used condoms instead of oral contraceptives, it would be associated with about 600,000 extra (presumably unintentional) pregnancies every year, and of those pregnancies there would be some morbidity and mortality associated with pregnancy (but still fewer strokes). That figure totally blew my mind, and I'd never seen it before! I think the freaky, one-in-several-thousand side effects have some extra resonance on people, or something.

PS Mountain Dew Throwback is awesome. It has real sugar and an old-timey cartoon guy on the label! *Pancreas catches on fire*

i think gbx and i have talked abt how u&k soda is during midterms (hes a fan of mt dew but i like mexican sodas)

the oral contraceptives thing is r interesting and i think there is oftentimes a willful ignorance towards the idea that there are always risk and tradeoffs w/ modern medicine ~ need to think more abt this tho

I don't know why I talked about Throwback twice, I think I am v tired today.

Mexican sodas are unfuckwithable between Mexican Coke and Jarritos, though. </Metabolic Syndrome>

there is oftentimes a willful ignorance towards the idea that there are always risk and tradeoffs w/ modern medicine

^^^this. there are few magic bullets in medicine. it's sorta funny that vaccines are actually one of them (most of the time). ;_;

also i have consumed one (1) mountain dew today

other, infuriating, goal post moving anti-vaxx strawman i hate:

pharma makes SO MUCH MONEY from vaccines! *arches eyebrows*

^^^ i had this argument w/ someone b4 and its like "you realize that big pharma doesnt give a fuk about vaccines and makes hardly any money from them" "well that's what they WANT you to think" "..."

other things that cost money

-- trains
-- bicycles
-- wind power generators
-- condoms
-- etc.

the whole argument is predicated on the idea that vaccines are ACTUALLY useless, despite all evidence to the contrary. if anything, the only thing scandalous about $$$ and vaccines is that they're not cheaper and more widely available

just read that whole article and wow, you would think that a goof like kirby who's made his bones trolling the medical community could at least have the sense to do better than that garbage, which is just 700 words worth of confounding variables, small sample sizes, conspiracy theories and str8 misinformation

from what i know of this guy he's a rightwing nut, why does huffpo even run his columns?

huge traffic numbers

from what i know of this guy he's a rightwing nut, why does huffpo even run his columns?

― rasta batman gigolo (k3vin k.), Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

Because Huffington is a fucking moron when it comes to health/diet issues.

Genius w/ nipple slip coverage, tho.

this whole vaccine = autism drives me crazy mad. what the hell is wrong with people?

also i thought autism wasnt curable only manageable? my best friends son is autistic and has read everything on the subject. she believes in the triggered gene argument which im also inclined to believe.

also didnt jenny mccarthy not even notice her kid was autistic until he was in school and the kids teacher informed her?

what would be nice is a set of handy links refuting these anti-vax talking points, none of which has to do with autism:

- vaccines have mercury in them; proper tests have not been done to show that children aren't harmed by the mercury in vaccines (yes i know that in the US vaccines no longer contain thimerosol, but in europe they do, plus the swine flu vaccine definitely has thimerosol in it regardless of where you live)

- vaccines are a cash cow for pharmaceutical companies; we don't need them but big pharma has convinced govt that they are necessary; we are propagandized into believing it - both by the companies theselves and by the government - in order to fill the coffers of these companies

- along the same lines, proper independent testing is never done on these vaccines; if you look at the funding for every group who does testing you can trace it back to a pharmaceutical company or other vested interest; so when you're told "it's safe" that's a lie

- nobody gets measles or mumps any more; why do we need a vaccine?

you can read variations on these points in the comments thread of this CBS News story that implies "vaccine defenders" are paid off by big pharma:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml

the general thrust is that there is a "mandatory vaccine racket" that could be harming children, but we'll never find out, because every study is tainted by pharma cash

haha and just to be clear, that's what CBS HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE MATTER.. so you can imagine the comments

vaccines are a cash cow for pharmaceutical companies

Making this up, but profit from a one-off dose of vaccine must be pretty small beer to corporations whose main income surely comes from regular drug treatments for chronic illness, no? Even when given to large chunks of the population.

Is it hypocritical if my stance is "of course vaccines are a good idea, shut up and take them" but my feelings on psych drugs are "I was on antidepressants and they seemed a) p bad for me personally and b) not scientifically fully understood, and I don't trust the testing methods, so, let some company sell me a bunch of chemicals to wash through my brain every day I THINK NOT" etc?

(wd justify this partly by thinking our understanding of neurochemistry is very far behind our understanding of e.g. immunology, but I'm no scientist)

(No idea on handy links - feel some could probably be obtained from hoking through Bad Science, but don't currently wish to expose myself to the Dawkinsesque smug righteousness of the commenters)

well there were billions of swine flu jabs manufactured i think - volume, baby

"MMR is out of copyright, it’s generic, anyone can make it, you could set up a factory and make it yourself if you wanted; it’s not a money-spinner."
http://www.badscience.net/2003/12/mmr-never-mind-the-facts/

yeah but what about the yearly flu vaccine! it's a racket that is possibly giving our kids mercury poisoning!

damnit where is that graphic of mercury in vaccines vs. mercury in sardines

are you saying that mercury in sardines is good for you?

maybe not if you have lots of sardines every day, just like happens with vaccines!

i am late for school so i'm only gonna address the two i can off the cuff and w/o having to resort to "links"

- vaccines are a cash cow for pharmaceutical companies; we don't need them but big pharma has convinced govt that they are necessary; we are propagandized into believing it - both by the companies theselves and by the government - in order to fill the coffers of these companies

vaccines being a cash cow for the people making them is a strawman argument, and only holds water IF "we don't need them." but we do. and while i realize that being a scion of modern medicine makes my opinion suspect or w/e, pretty much the entire body of medical and public health literature would back me up on that. but i dunno maybe having measles kicking around would be keep things ~interesting~

- nobody gets measles or mumps any more; why do we need a vaccine?

q for u: do you know ~why~ no one gets these things anymore? and psssst btw ppl HAVE gotten measles, recently, in the united states! actually, here is an internet link for you: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5708a3.htm

sweet dude

- vaccines have mercury in them; proper tests have not been done to show that children aren't harmed by the mercury in vaccines (yes i know that in the US vaccines no longer contain thimerosol, but in europe they do, plus the swine flu vaccine definitely has thimerosol in it regardless of where you live)

the cdc has a good page dealing with these concerns and further links to independent, peer-reviewed research. they also have extensive information regarding thimerosal and h1n1 and other flu vaccines. thimerosal is still being used as a preservative in h1n1 and other flu vaccines but a) u can get doses w/o it for v young children and b) the dangers still arent fully understood, anyway. i mean it sounds callous but:

In the meantime, it is important to keep in mind that the benefits of influenza vaccination outweigh the theoretical risk, if any, for exposure to thimerosal. Each year, an average of about 36,000 people in the United States die from influenza, and 114,000 have to be admitted to the hospital as a result of influenza

but i also i mean - if your determined to see the gov't as a propaganda wing of Big Pharama then anything the cdc or the nejm or whomever is going to print is just ~~part of the machine~~. also a lot of the science w/r/t to thimerosal for e.g. is still uncertain esp w/automimmune rxns. and i can see that it seems frustrating or condescending but we ~don't know~ some of this stuff yet - we dont have a complete picture of all the interreactions yet.

so while the weight of the evidence seems to be that no, cf this in pediatrics - i mean its still guarded, y'know?

ilx doesnt seem to like that link but just google Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data.

Will the Vaccine-Autism Saga Finally End?
Not likely. You can retract a scientific paper, but not a mass movement.

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2010/02/vaccine-saga/

haven't read all this thread, and unrelated to autism, so take this as unrelated/in the general, but it kind of bothers me re:flu vaccine the hate that people throw at ordinary people who aren't as smart or well-educated as them, especially when, not to get all tinfoilhat, the paranoia was ramped up by news networks etc. at a time when vaccines were in short supply.

Also my own little anecdote: my friend was in a risk category and worried about the vaccine, and i told her hey these are the people that know shit, that calculated the risks, that did the research, telling you you need this. So she got it, had a reaction almost immediately, and was badly sick for almost a month. Boy, did i feel bad.

these are the people that know shit, that calculated the risks, that did the research, telling you you need this.

This is still true.

the kind of ratings-trolling that US networks have done surrounding vaccines has been disgusting and borderline criminal

ratings trolling?

same kind of ratings-trolling they do on every issue

Laurel: yeah it is and i don't wanna spread more FUD by recounting that

i dnno, i there's more i have to say re that and que's q and stupid idiots but busy and haven't read the thread

zvook i don't think anyone here hates regular people who are skeptical about flu vaccines, i mean it's natural given all the anecdotes you'll hear to be wary of putting anything you're unsure about in your body. doesnt mean they shouldn't get the shot or vaccinate their kids, or that their misinformed decisions are any less dangerous, we just have to do a better job of spreading, yknow, scientific info and reasons why it's important for everyone to get these shots. it's the mccarthys and the wakefields of the world that are the actual evil ones, they're the ones jeopardizing public health by spreading the misinformation/fearmongering and reaching a large and easily-persuaded mass of people with it

man i really hate using such loaded words as "evil" when "ignorant" "foolish" and "should be smacked upside the head with a giant catfish" should suffice