"The Wire" on HBO

I mean it doesn't even make sense cause why are there only two ways - but whatevs, I say it in my head to everyone now

i like it a lot better than "you cant always get what you want"

dyao's take is pretty otm, although i still think that makes it weird that people like to quote it, since it has none of that weight without context. also the difference with the Departed quote is that line actually has some snap to it.

that's the one i'm reading sarahel.

xposts

It's his reaction to getting schooled in the poker game by the older dudes.

It's also all about contrasting Omar with Marlo. When Omar sticks up the gangsters' poker game later he's dropping great lines the whole time "these four-fives beat a full house", "money ain't got no owners only spenders" and "you got me confused with a man who repeats himself"... Marlo bullies a working man and his philosophy and language have no finesse, no depth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409Pjtq7jzY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWbq-WgE6yo

And he repeats himself.

One of the essays in the book is about the contrast between the familiar, almost feudal mode of organization of the Barksdales and the dockworkers vs. the monetary global capitalism represented by the Greeks and Stringer. But it seemed like Marlo's organization isn't either of these things - it's closer to a Fascist state, and I'd kinda hoped that the essay would draw historical parallels with Capitalism and the rise of Fascism, but no dice. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations?

The essays do come from a variety of disciplines, which is interesting - though there's a lot less in depth textual analysis than I had hoped/wanted.

brio otm
ship, i think what people like about that line is that it mirrors their own sense of "gotta be a big fish among little fish" casual brutality. It's a helpless, hopeless, artless sort of thing to say; what is meant to pass for wisdom among warriors. as is too often the case, what we're supposed to take as a warning becomes chic.

One of the essays in the book is about the contrast between the familiar, almost feudal mode of organization of the Barksdales and the dockworkers vs. the monetary global capitalism represented by the Greeks and Stringer. But it seemed like Marlo's organization isn't either of these things - it's closer to a Fascist state, and I'd kinda hoped that the essay would draw historical parallels with Capitalism and the rise of Fascism, but no dice. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations?

when cultural studies professors attack... how in the name of all that is holy are the dockworkers feudal? (or indeed the barksdales?) gangsters have often been metaphors for the onward march of capitalism n e way.

what kind of parallel do you think should be drawn between the bmore drug trade and the rise of fascism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLqz1udhtY&feature=player_embedded
(ripped off from the hitler ranting thread)

i dont know about feudal but its hard not to see how the dockworkers and avon represent an "older" sort of organization/lifestyle--an economy predicated on "honor" or something--vs. the greeks and stringer who are dyed-in-the-wool free-marketeers

yep. i think the show effectively undermines that, the kid visiting his dad in jail, and one of the kids herc and carver pick up, saying: we're always being told it gets worse and worse.

coz the new breed of more ruthless and more capitalist gangster is a pretty old idea. it's even in the godfather, really, with the refusal to move drugs. but the claim that the old way os honourable is usually bs -- either way, if you're going to do that, be more specific and don't use "feudal".

"paternal" then

the essay used the term "feudal" - in the sense that their operations were based on territory - they lived off the land in a certain respect. Different locals and different drug gangs had their own fiefdoms, and there was a status hierarchy that wasn't dissimilar. It was contrasted to Stringer and the Greeks that weren't concerned with territory, but with money. It uses the conflict between Avon and Stringer in Season 3, where Avon wants his corners and Stringer just wants to make money wholesaling as an example of the difference between these approaches.

probably better just to talk about different ways of doing business, slightly newer version of capitalism vs slightly older. it's a realist drama and trying to make the different sides represent massive historical epochs seems kind of dumm to me.

the greeks are wholesalers, im not sure how their operation works, but it doesn't involve territory. dealing drugs -- retail -- does. we never see how the greeks relate to other wholesalers, but id guess that irl there are territorial disputes from time to time.

similarly, avon and stringer are disputing what the nature of their business should be. wholesaling vs retail is hardly the same as capitalist vs feudal. and iirc rival wholesalers to come into play, right? from ny?

i was gonna say - maybe early vs. late capitalism would be a better comparison, but I don't think it's "dumm" to look at the conditions that led to the rise and success of Marlo's organization and compare them to the historical conditions that led to the rise of Fascism. Why is that "dumm"? Obviously, if there isn't any interesting connection to make then it would be "dumm" to write an essay about it, but considering the show deals with issues of economic theory and models, I don't think it's far-fetched to think about Marlo in terms of historical Fascism.

X-posts
Yeah, I think The Wire intentionally messes with the Godfather-style gangster "new breed" progression. Marlo isn't exactly a more capitalist gangster, or even neccessarily more ruthless than Stringer or the Greeks. He's not a refinement of free-marketeering, he's just a child and a narcissist. He's what's left to fill the vacuum when the free-marketeers destroy their own best and brightest. Maybe some echoes of the rise of fascism in that...

And maybe it's a bit of a stretch to compare it to the rise of fascism - but there's definitely an exploration of what happens when people begin to let the ends justify the means going on in The Wire, especially in Season 5 Carcetti and McNulty plotlines.

But that's probably a lot more about Bush-era USA than the rise of Fascism.

i just think it's a meaningless parallel -- literally no idea what you could even mean by it. the show is about aspects of contemporary reality. the dockworkers are relics of a phase of american history, but nothing as grand as "early capitalism". they're part of pre-1970s industrial america (corporatist?) and are trying to cling on to the rights they had back then.

on how marlo's rise parallels fascism -- again, what?

xpost

I guess the connections to Fascism that I was thinking of were:

the demand for unquestioning loyalty (e.g. Michael not allowed to question decisions, the guy getting killed for possibly calling Marlo a "cocksucker")
the lack of respect for tradition/history and basic human dignity (the fact that the bodies are put in boarded up houses and not allowed traditional funereal rites)
ruthlessness

that's just off the top of my head

you have avon's cookouts and the importance of family (as limned in the very first episode), alongside the union "brothers" - both of these kinds of organization feel like - and are portrayed as - remnants of another era in contrast with everybody else (especially the police dept which is a kind of unionless dystopia where management ramrods everyone)

the lack of respect for tradition/history

in theory, the fascists were all about this.

ruthlessness is usually a capitalist thing -- a lot of fascist rhetoric was against new-model big-business capitalism. modern fascists would decry the rise of superstores pushing out local small shops.

xpost

agree with tracer -- obviously the show contrasts how these groups work. i just don't see (the need for) unhelpful historical parallels.

I guess I was thinking about Italian futurism that supported the rise of fascism initially when I thought about the lack of respect for tradition/history. And it isn't like Marlo is a pure capitalist - he wants his corners, just like Avon did. He valued the traditional notions of territory, and the warrior/soldier mentality.

no-one is a pure capitalist! as i say, there will always be territory, and always the need to defend it. idk, i think you're overthinking it tbqh. there was some odd dialectic in fascism between futurism and invented-traditionalism, but i think its appeal rested quite heavily on the latter -- and this is all a long long way from 'the wire' on HBO.

i do think some gangster fiction does tell us how power operates -- 'the godfather' especially -- in a thomas hobbes kind of way. not really feelin these direct analogies tho.

Well, Stringer sorta tries to operate purely on capitalist principles. Maybe fascism is the wrong analogy to draw with Marlo's operation, but it is different from that of Avon, Stringer, and Prop Joe. When I read that essay, I just wanted it to speak to the rise of Marlo, or how the Greeks could survive/function operating on monetarist principles (again the language of the essay, not necessarily mine), whereas Stringer couldn't.

marlo should have just said "it is what it is"

was this posted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I-jYV1KHiw&feature=player_embedded

wth was that drink?! and i thought he was about to order a natty boh

she has the greatest laugh...also half waiting for Chris to come along & pop Tony in the back of the head.

yeah bourdain... your hair look real good

have you guys seen the crappy news?

probably not a hoax :(

discussed on treme thread btw

oh wow - i'd never even noticed that thread!

Watching season 3, and there is mention of hotspots for drug traffic, one of which is North and Pulaski, so I pulled it up:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=north+and+pulaski+baltimore&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=W+North+Ave+%26+N+Pulaski+St,+Baltimore,+MD+21217&gl=us&ei=qKDCS4rMJMiAnwezm-SuCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8gEwAA

?

if you do street view does it become the cornerstore where spoiler they tried to frame omar at?

no

Do I need to get hold of the Homicide: Life on the Streets and The Corner DVDs as a huge Wire fan? As much as I loved watching multiple times in 2009, I do feel like I'm kind of *over* it though, and ready to explore other things.

I'd rent them, not buy them.

Better to get Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets (Simon's book on which the tv show is based) instead (from the library, natch).

book rules

what a fool I am, I paid for both it and the Corner from a bookshop

I got the Corner from the library but ooooooh I hate it when writers transcript/write in slang. preventing me from reading a lot of good books I think (richard price's clockers is another example.)

HA! me too.

clockers, i mean. couldn't read it.

well that and i have problems with fiction about crime? not sure. i liked homicide though.

Clockers was great, but I had trouble with the written slang in the Pelecanos book I read.

btw has anyone watched Intelligence? netflix suggested it to fans of The Wire. not really seeing a lot of parallel right now, other than being pretty well written and about law enforcement surveillance.

I've only read one Pelecanos, but had so little trouble with it that I went and bought three more afterwards

i read pelecanos for sentimental reasons and cringe quite a bit tbh, and for more reasons than dialogue. like his work on the wire though. clockers is another league; price's ear's a treasure.