TS: The Iliad vs The Odyssey

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TS: Tragedy vs. comedy

TS: The verse chronicle of an entire human and divine culture's suicide-by-hubris vs. the verse chronicle of one man's return against all odds to his wife, his home, and himself.

OF COURSE the Odyssey is more readable/enjoyable. So what? That seems like the laziest possible measure of their comparitive value.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 17:36 (nineteen years ago) link

er, "comparative"

nothing ruins a good rant like an embarassing typo

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 17:37 (nineteen years ago) link

The Odyssey. I had to read that for my Classical Studies O'Grade(the 1st and only person in my school to ever take that).

Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 17:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I've read adaptations of both, but never direct translations. I liked them both, but the Odyssey is the best, because it has such great stuff in it.

Isn't there a theory that the two poems were composed by different people? Odysseus' character seems a bit different in each of them.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 20:10 (nineteen years ago) link

Completely OT

I just read the Aeneid. I've been meaning to read it for about 6 years (since I did my GCSEs), and never realised that it was such a great read..

Need to read these two now..

jellybean (jellybean), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 20:13 (nineteen years ago) link

The Odyssey for me, for the reasons you all said. One of my best friends, who did classics at Oxford so I think has read them in the 'original', much prefers The Iliad, and considers Achilles in that to be one of the great characters in the history of literature.

I believe the reasons for the lengthy lists of ships and people are that these stories were recited at great houses and courts, and the more mentions you worked in of the guests' supposed forebears and home towns and so on, the better you did on tips.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 20:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Fagles:
Rage — Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus’ son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters’ souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end.
Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed,
Agamemnon lord of men and brilliant Achilles.

Lattimore:
Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished
since that time when first there stood in division of conflict
Atreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.

the fagles version seems a lot better to me, much more direct and memorable: you can imagine someone chanting it out loud, where the lattimore seems like a bunch of good phrases randomly slung together with awkward syntax ("hurled in their multitudes" is good, but "division of conflict" just sounds fussy and lame).

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 22:53 (nineteen years ago) link

Seconded. The Fagles is more muscular and immediate - it's a better, more readable English work.

However: The Lattimore version is classic, and necessary. Lattimore does extraordinary work in faithfully recreating the homeric hexameter (dactylic, for those keeping score at home), and some of his less successful english phrases surface Hellenic ideals and cultural touchstones that the Fagles blurs. It reminds us that the Greeks, in addition to initiating Teh Western Tradition, were alien beings rather than simply buffer reflections of ourselves.

Fagles is certainly more modern. For better and for worse, so are his Achaeans.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 23:24 (nineteen years ago) link

So wait until I can read it in Greek, then?

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 1 September 2005 03:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Nah, just read the Fagles. Or the Pope...

THE Wrath of Peleus' Son, the direful Spring
Of all the Grecian Woes, O Goddess, sing!
That Wrath which hurl'd to Pluto's gloomy Reign
The Souls of mighty Chiefs untimely slain;
Whose Limbs unbury'd on the naked Shore
Devouring Dogs and hungry Vultures tore.
Since Great Achilles and Atrides strove,
Such was the Sov'reign Doom, and such the Will of Jove.

I know they were fashionable at the time, but those damn heroic couplets are crazymaking!

rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 1 September 2005 04:09 (nineteen years ago) link

Using the Roman god names is a nice touch. God, Pope was such an ass.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 1 September 2005 04:22 (nineteen years ago) link

Pope rocked bells, motherhuggers. Get one Dunciad.

I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Thursday, 1 September 2005 08:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Using the Roman god names is a nice touch.

The names of the Roman Gods are the suck.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 1 September 2005 08:58 (nineteen years ago) link

i'll take the Odyssey over tha Iliad. I only read it in an adapted version, but it seems better than what I imagine the Iliad to be like.

AaronK (AaronK), Thursday, 1 September 2005 09:36 (nineteen years ago) link

I like the E.V. Rieu prose translation, personally. Fuck reading hundreds of pages of heroic couplets.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Agreed though. I wouldn't read Pope's translations to understand the originals, but I like them well enough as Pope.

I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:55 (nineteen years ago) link

From what I've read of the Dunciad, it is also the suck. Heroic couplet are unworkable. See also the later works of the Residents for further proof.

The names of the Roman Gods are the suck.

That, of course, is what I was saying, if that wasn't clear.

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 2 September 2005 01:37 (nineteen years ago) link

It was clear. If anyone could make those couplets work, it was Pope, but they do grate. They're good for the quippin' though.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Friday, 2 September 2005 02:04 (nineteen years ago) link

five years pass...

I try and read both each year ( have read both at some point being a classics bore) as a new year's resolution. Goes down well with red wine. But I get to about half way and end up looking up Ulysses 31 on you tube. Now that was an epic.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 17:56 (thirteen years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4c1X5ene8

Is it not wonderful?

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link

Also see "Odysseus, the greatest hero of them all," a narrated tale by Tony Robbinson. Shamefully neglected and impossible to track down. But fantastic TV.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link

I remember ROFLing over the end credits, because the French production company was called DIC Entertainment.

got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Classic shit though. 'Ol Uly had a gun that doubled as a laser sword. Beat that Obi-Wan.

got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Search on google for Odysseus the greatest hero of them all and you get "the moondial" which was pretty good too, but more so a few years later when the main actress was in another series getting down and dirty.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Anyway, I am sure that shows like Dogtanian, Mysterious Cities of Gold, Belle and Sebastian (the cartoon) and Willie Fogg have their own threads.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link

In a similar vein, hitler stole charlie chaplin's moustache and, I ask you, what good came of it? none

Aimless, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link

I am not sure that I understand that last post. Was it saying that Virgil stole the ideas off Homer for his epic poem (which he obviously did, to Venerate Augustus) or are you slagging off Ulysses 31?
All these folk had tashes.

I like the idea that the once powerful Olympian God are extant but no longer venerated. They hand out in pubs all day and at the bookies waiting for their dole and Hermes works for a motorbike messenger service and Aphrodite as an escort. Without worship they are nothing.

PS sorry, tired and on the beer.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

That's an idea for a BBC3 sit-com there.

got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Hang out, they hang out in pubs.

Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link

thirteen years pass...

i'm going in (the iliad), splashed out on the new Emily Wilson version.

Goddess, sing of the cataclysmic wrath
of great Achilles, son of Peleus,
which caused the Greeks immeasurable pain
and sent so many noble souls of heroes
to Hades, and made men the spoils of dogs,
a banquet for birds, and so the plan
of Zeus unfolded - starting with the conflict
between great Agamemnon, lord of men
and glorius Achilles.

have read several modern retellings of this (Pat Barker, Stephen Fry, Natalie Haynes etc) so i know pretty much all the details, but haven't read an actual translation before.

koogs, Wednesday, 4 September 2024 19:22 (two months ago) link

I love Logue's War Music, wish he had finished it. wonder what he would have done with the scene between Priam and Achilles.

This is worth reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/simone-weil-the-iliad

default damager (lukas), Wednesday, 4 September 2024 20:43 (two months ago) link

just to give the flavor of Logue's version (not a translation really)

Headlock. Body slam. Hands that do not reach back. Low dust.
Stormed by Chylabborak, driven in by Abassee
The light above his circle hatched with spears
Odysseus to Sheepgrove:

'Get lord Idomeneo from the ridge.'

Then prays:

'Brainchild Athena, Holy Girl,
As one you made
As calm and cool as water in a well.
I know that you have cares enough
Other than those of me and mine.
Yet, Daughter of God, without your help
We cannot last.'

Setting down her topaz saucer heaped with nectarine jelly
Emptying her blood-red mouth set in her ice-white face
Teenaged Athena jumped up and shrieked:
'Kill! Kill for me!
Better to die than to live without killing!'

Who says prayer does no good?

default damager (lukas), Wednesday, 4 September 2024 22:38 (two months ago) link

it's taken 3 days to get through the 70 pages of preamble. she talks a good talk, let's see if the translation's any good. (it is the most recent, took her 5 years, and people seem to like it. it was also 11x what i normally spend on ebooks)

koogs, Saturday, 7 September 2024 07:37 (one month ago) link

three weeks pass...

done with the iliad. took longer than expected (and the layout meant that a page was often two pages long on the kobo)

it's an odd thing, something modern in its framing - it's a month towards the end of a 10 year war, misses all the reasons AND the resolutions (doesn't cover, for instance, the death of achilles or the wooden horse). there is a lot of tedious, gory fighting. book 2 is pretty much a list of ships.

it's a great story but some of the modern retellings are more enjoyable (and there are many)

koogs, Monday, 30 September 2024 09:05 (one month ago) link

It is very gory, thats one of the things that stuck with me. How many ways can someone poetically describe a spear going through a person's body?

o. nate, Monday, 30 September 2024 12:59 (one month ago) link


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