ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

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apostrophes are so last century

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:15 (twenty years ago) link

theyre the microhouse of punctuation

mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:15 (twenty years ago) link

"and then smog licked ott's wounds"

mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:17 (twenty years ago) link

Here's my question. I'm proofing this German website which my company had translated into English so we can use it as a resource. When referring to a made-up person, like a subordinate, they alternate between him and her from sentence to sentence, so it will be like:
Giving feedback to a subordinate helps him learn.
Then
Positive rapport helps a subordinate build her self-esteem.
But in the US, we would use him/her, or his/her, like:
Giving feedback to a subordinate helps him/her learn.
But sometimes this can get really tortured. So my question is, when is it appropriate to use "them" or "their" for a single person, like:
Giving feedback to a subordinate helps them learn.
Are you just supposed to use this when it will make things clearer? Or is it grammatically incorrect but tolerated? I really hate "him/her" and would rather keep it the way the Germans wrote it, but it has to be in proper English business grammar.

NA. (Nick A.), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:19 (twenty years ago) link

grammatically incorrect but tolerated etiquette-wise, basically

how abt:
Giving feedback to a subordinate helps him learn (her learn). [and then alternate the order]

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:22 (twenty years ago) link

Cor Mark that's even clunkier!

Grammatically incorrect but increasingly tolerated in my experience. In the version of business English our business uses here in England, no-one would even notice. Except the sort of pedants you'd like to irritate.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:24 (twenty years ago) link

just use "him"

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:28 (twenty years ago) link

No it's not: you get a whole sentence followed by an alternative section you can easily ignore. (Because it's in brackets.)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:28 (twenty years ago) link

(nutcase) Yes maybe you're right.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:31 (twenty years ago) link

How about:

Giving feedback to subordinateS helps them learn.

Dilemma solved.

kate (kate), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:32 (twenty years ago) link

just use "him" but put a disclaimer at the bottom telling everyone how much women are valued in the workplace and that you're actually dead politcally correct, like, and you'll be fine...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:34 (twenty years ago) link

if you're going to start a fight you might as well start it by putting "her" the whole time, and then put a disclaimer at the bottom saying men can eat a bag of dicks

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:37 (twenty years ago) link

Use "him/the dog".

Sam (chirombo), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:37 (twenty years ago) link

just include a picture of a german woman with subtitle "him" and youre sorted

mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:39 (twenty years ago) link

if you're going to start a fight you might as well start it by putting "her" the whole time,

either or'sgood with me


men can eat a bag of dicks

i live for the day i see this in any corporate communication

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:40 (twenty years ago) link

kate is OTM.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:41 (twenty years ago) link

just use "her" but put a disclaimer at the bottom telling everyone how much men are valued in the workplace and that you're actually dead politcally correct, like, and you'll be fine...

no, them is acceptable these days, and has been for years

Alan (Alan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:41 (twenty years ago) link

alternately substitute any instance of him, her, them or theirs with 'rammstein'

mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:44 (twenty years ago) link

"giving feedback to a subordinate helps rammstein learn"

mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:46 (twenty years ago) link

You could also alternate 'him' and 'her' in different examples - a favourite self-help book technique but never mind. I still don't like 'them' in written English.

Archel (Archel), Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:46 (twenty years ago) link

But it's fine in spoken English?

RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 17 July 2003 13:59 (twenty years ago) link

What does Nesbit do when describing something possessed by the Psammead.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:09 (twenty years ago) link

Everything's fine in spoken English, it's in flux and I don't pay attention anyway :)

Archel (Archel), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:09 (twenty years ago) link

Alternating him and her was the Thing to Do when I was at Hahvahd.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:18 (twenty years ago) link

I use Shem to mean both.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:19 (twenty years ago) link

good point ptee:

things belonging to Cousin It are Cousin It's

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:19 (twenty years ago) link

"Them".

Chris P (Chris P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:31 (twenty years ago) link

I use the third person plural rather than any of the other alternatives. If you actually put things into plural as much as possible, that helps.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 17 July 2003 19:47 (twenty years ago) link

Alternating him and her was the Thing to Do when I was at Hahvahd.

That's what people kept telling me, but I was never that adventurous.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 17 July 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

I was going to make Chris's point without solid evidence. Hurrah for 'them'.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 17 July 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

y'know what? that it's/its thing has been bothering me for years and now i know. didn't realise it was that simple. Its like an epiphany ;-)

dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 18 July 2003 01:16 (twenty years ago) link

Using "them" or any other plural pronoun to refer to a singular antecedent is a horrible horrible thing and should be avoided.

It used to be gramatically acceptable to use a masculine pronoun (he, him, etc.) when referring to a person of unspecified gender (you know what I mean.. I can't think of any other way to put it), but now the "he or she"/"his or her" method is the proper form.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference whether you use a slash or the word "or." I suspect that the slash is unacceptable in formal writing.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 18 July 2003 02:11 (twenty years ago) link

"giving feedback to a subordinate helps motherfuckers learn," italics or boldface on "learn" obv. possible/encouraged

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 July 2003 02:33 (twenty years ago) link

"I know what you're thinking. Did s/he fire six shots or only five?"

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 03:31 (twenty years ago) link

I suspect that the slash is unacceptable in formal writing.

Unless it's academic writing, and it allows you to make a terrible pun somehow.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:31 (twenty years ago) link

but now the "he or she"/"his or her" method is the proper form.

Proper, maybe. But it should be pointed out that if you're having to cram this into your sentence, you;re writing a clumsy sentence, and you should probably drop back and punt.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:34 (twenty years ago) link

Not that I don't write clumsy sentences all the time, mind you. It's just that I'm aware of it.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:35 (twenty years ago) link

seven months pass...
Quick - is "fact-checking" hyphenated? Or is it "factchecking"? Oh no, they both look weird!

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:24 (twenty years ago) link

I use the hyphen.

Mary (Mary), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:44 (twenty years ago) link

So...should I?

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:45 (twenty years ago) link

I am never sure with phrases like that. I don't think you'll be shot down for any of the three options. The Guardian style guide is not very helpful on this point:


hyphens
Our style is to use one word wherever possible, including some instances where a word might be hyphenated by other publications. Hyphens tend to clutter up text (particularly when the computer breaks already hyphenated words at the end of lines)

Inventions, ideas and new concepts often begin life as two words, then become hyphenated, before finally becoming accepted as one word. Why wait? "Wire-less" and "down-stairs" were once hyphenated. In pursuit of this it is preferable to go further than Collins does in many cases: eg trenchcoat is two words in Collins but one under our style

Never use hyphens after adverbs, eg politically naive, wholly owned. But do use them to form compound adjectives, eg two-tonne vessel, three-year deal

Do use hyphens where not using one would be ambiguous, eg to distinguish "black-cab drivers come under attack" from "black cab-drivers come under attack"

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:48 (twenty years ago) link

For a US employer, I would go with fact checker, noun, and fact-check, verb, though I don't think it's that important, unless you are applying for a copyediting job as a copy editor.

Mary (Mary), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:54 (twenty years ago) link

Well, it is for a US employer and it does involve some copyediting. I am going for "fact-checking". Thanks!

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:57 (twenty years ago) link

But both N. and Mary advise against using a hyphen, so what are you thanking them for? I agree with both of them. If you're a "fact-checking cuz" the hyphen works, but a "fact checker" should be two words, like a "kitchen porter" or a "piano tuner." Some jobs have become one word, like "dishwasher," and maybe fact checkers are edging into this privileged group. But I think a hyphen is wrong for the noun you're looking for.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 03:45 (twenty years ago) link

I would go with fact checker, noun, and fact-check, verb,

Tracer, I read this as advocating the phrase "fact-checking" as a verb (sorry, should have made that clear) so thanks were in order!

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:16 (twenty years ago) link

Thanks!

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:16 (twenty years ago) link

Anyway, it's all signed, sealed, stamped, and delivered now, so we shall see what comes of it...

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:17 (twenty years ago) link

Silly Tracer: Fact checker is the noun, fact-check is the verb, and fact-checking is the gerund. When in doubt search Google News and align your style with the New York Times or similar. I've just realized that this thread title is wrong—it should be Copy editors.

Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 09:43 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, silly Tracer.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 11:44 (twenty years ago) link

six months pass...
grammar question:

assuming i only have one brother, would it be acceptable to write, "I went with my brother Isaac to the store" or do i have to write, "I went with my brother, Isaac, to the store" ?

for some reason i am under the impression that non-essential info can be stuck in without commas as long as it is only one or two words. but apparently, this is wrong?

j c (j c), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:33 (nineteen years ago) link

have you any wool?

towards fungal computer (harbl), Sunday, 22 May 2022 13:48 (one year ago) link

What matter have you against me?

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 May 2022 14:10 (one year ago) link

british people don't consider "gotten" a word iirc

Tracer Hand, Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:09 (one year ago) link

That’s changed a lot recently.

Alba, Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:15 (one year ago) link

You could say they’ve gotten wise to the hip US lingo

we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:17 (one year ago) link

ill-gotten is very ordinary present-day uk english (when used of gains, riches, wealth etc)

etymonline.com dates its hip modernity to the 14c: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gotten

(ie like many US variants it's older not newer)

mark s, Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:41 (one year ago) link

Best word there is sooterkin.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:43 (one year ago) link

it is a good word definitely

mark s, Sunday, 22 May 2022 20:45 (one year ago) link

I was making a bad joke fwiw

we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Monday, 23 May 2022 00:50 (one year ago) link

I'm not at all keen on 'gotten'. But for that matter I'm not keen on 'got' - a very overused, almost ubiquitous word which I don't find at all pretty. As Mark S has already indicated above, it's often not at all necessary to use this word. In James Redd's example, I would say 'Have you reached ... ?'

the pinefox, Monday, 23 May 2022 09:58 (one year ago) link

be careful or you will get got

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Monday, 23 May 2022 14:29 (one year ago) link

So my state has outlawed individual plastic bags, which means you have to bring your own shopping bags to the supermarket and basically everywhere else to carry your purchases away. I went to a small supermarket the other day on a whim and didn't have a bag with me, so I was forced to buy one for 99 cents. Anyway, it says on the side

"Thank You for Shopping With us!"

capitalized exactly like that. Shouldn't that obviously be "Thank You for Shopping with Us!"?

but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 23 May 2022 16:52 (one year ago) link

Maybe they thought it was a two-letter word and therefore should be capitalized? Or maybe it is some weird patriotic thing.

I used to use a free bag somebody gave me from the NYC DoS or some other agency, but I finally lost it and ending up getting a nice foldable one from the local gift shop that wasn't too expensive which I love, although now I am paranoid since I don't have it on me and don't quite remember where I put it.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:03 (one year ago) link

Should be lowercased, I meant to say.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:04 (one year ago) link

All lowercase and all caps both solutions to a certain problem.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:05 (one year ago) link

CamelCase to thread!

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:06 (one year ago) link

all lowercase is always correct

mark s, Monday, 23 May 2022 17:16 (one year ago) link

also check yrself once you start proofing plastic bags, there's a lot of vernacular house style out there and you will lose yr mind to no purpose

mark s, Monday, 23 May 2022 17:18 (one year ago) link

all lowercase is always correct

Similar to always dressing in black, like Johnny Cash or Steven Meisel.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:19 (one year ago) link

thats right

mark s, Monday, 23 May 2022 17:23 (one year ago) link

Shouldn't that obviously be "Thank You for Shopping with Us!"?

Personally speaking, I'd lose the exclamation point as making them sound over-excitable and perhaps mentally unbalanced.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:27 (one year ago) link

Should really be: “Thank You for Shopping with ‘us!’”

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:31 (one year ago) link

Thank You for Shopping with BIG HOOS aka the streendriver

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:32 (one year ago) link

Songs where it’s fun to say HOOS in place of the actual plastic bag.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:34 (one year ago) link

Perhaps I will start posting in HOOS case.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:35 (one year ago) link

DO U see?!

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:35 (one year ago) link

LET ME TRY this on for size.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 17:36 (one year ago) link

TS: ALL OF A SUDDEN VS. all of the sudden

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 19:53 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

Can I use "occasioned" like this?

the publication of X occasioned the first use of some new word

Note that the new word doesn't appear in X itself but appears in a review of X.

Antifa Lockhart (Leee), Thursday, 30 June 2022 22:32 (one year ago) link

It's grammatical enough, and "occasioned" is certainly an accepted word, so I'd say 'yes' to your question.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 30 June 2022 22:44 (one year ago) link

this usage is uncontroversially fine: if i was bored or being testy as an acitivist sub editor i might switch in "saw" or "led to" depending on context (context = nature of nearby sentences acc my picky sub self lol) viz "the publication of X saw the first use of some new word"/"the publication of X led to the first use of some new word"

gloss: if "occasioned" maybe possibly presents a micro-speedbump for a reader, i think "saw" presents none, while "led to" perhaps implies the fact you note, that the new word arrives a little later than X…

mark s, Friday, 1 July 2022 13:26 (one year ago) link

you might also use "prompted"

but your sentence is fine as is imo

budo jeru, Friday, 1 July 2022 15:03 (one year ago) link

Yeah, I think "occasioned" there is a little overwritten and that with a little bit of effort "led to" would be much more readable.

Antifa Lockhart (Leee), Friday, 1 July 2022 16:31 (one year ago) link

one year passes...

saw (a young person) referred to as a 'third-generation holocaust survivor'

obviously the topic is fraught, but it seems like there should be a better way to describe someone whose grandparents survived the camps

mookieproof, Thursday, 11 January 2024 01:55 (three months ago) link

A completely uncontroversial way to say that would be "a grandchild of Holocaust survivors."

And while - as mòokieproof says - it is fraught, it does seem a bit much to imply that you "survived" an event that you did not personally experience.

I am not, personally, a survivor of the Visigothic Sack of Rome, the Protestant Reformation, the Irish Potato Famine, the Trail of Tears, the American Revolution, the Civil War, or school desegregation.

Maybe (stretching this quite a bit) I have experienced some personal effects from the Cold War and/or the Vietnam War due to my parents' participation in them, but calling myself a "survivor" seems more like stolen valor than empathy and solidarity.

CthulhuLululemon (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 11 January 2024 04:19 (three months ago) link


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