Do we have a PAZZ AND JOB 2009 thread yet?

alright fair nuff, that's cool then

I mean, I can love a Bob Dylan song and still objectively admit his vocals are shit, right?

i mean, there's BARELY an audience for well-written indie rock criticism

That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that.

when combined with the overlap between the singles and album top tens, you could definitely make the case for an increase in indie solipsism. But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

i think the real test of how pernicious this indie strangehold would be whether it ignores some upswing in pop quality, not whether it dominates in a slow year

Whiney OTM. I don't think 90% of your average daily, non-crit Pitchfork visitor even reads the reviews. They come for the news updates and listen to the streaming tracks.

you thinking The-Dream's 2nd album was a sophomore album doesn't make it an objective truth.

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year. Or wait, maybe "Like a Surgeon," too, since I seem to recall Singles Jukebox reviewing that and I probably gave it a cursory listen, but it didn't stick. Anyway, I have a huge soft spot for that kind of light disco-funk, with the Chic-like walking bassline (e.g., Omarion's "Entourage" or some of those Snoop Dogg/Neptunes collabs or even Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," which I also listed), so it was something I immediately liked. If you want to recommend more R&B songs with that same "generic" sound, I'd love to hear them.

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

Quoting scottpl from above:

Maybe I'm wrong and there is some sort of place for discussion of this stuff, but I've seen us and RA and Stereogum and some other places thrive and/or get a foothold while the old VV, Blender, the thing CNET tried to start, Maura's Idolator, Stylus (which was about 5% less indie than p4k anyway) drift away and I feel like by now everyone complaining about that or missing them are people, say, posting in this thread.

xp Well, I get the idea that a lot of people who like The-Dream more than me (and like his second album more than you) do perceive that there was an upswing in pop quality in 2009. I actually think it was a decent year myself; I like Lady Gaga more than you. But right, like I said in the essay (the part with the "go out on a limb" aside you're keying in on), I don't expect most of my favorites to place anyway, in good years or bad years, since they haven't done so in a long time.

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

i think it's better than love/hate

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

depends on a) how you define intelligent and b) what you mean by "anything"

market's the same small-but-vocal minority, but the ability to make money off it is IOYVFIY:IOUGEOU(G#R*)Y#)TG#()&Y#)*&T#)(&T#)*^T*FO*YF

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:06 PM (51 seconds ago)

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year

you could do worse than to check out "echo", which is incredible http://www.last.fm/music/Ciara/_/Echo

money and hate are on a similar level for me but undoubtedly money codes more "catnip to critics"

xp I never liked D'Angelo, Jill Scott, or Erykah Badu much either, tbh. Or Lauryn Hill, who did a lot better than Top 5 one year. Not a big neo-soul/alt-r&b/whatever fan in general. But I'm not really sure what me liking them, or you liking them, has to do with their P&J placement.

I'm sorry, but when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Carry on.

TS: L/H vs. LM aside, we're talking about whether albums in the top 20 deserved to be in top 10, and what it says about the polling base that they weren't. We can either assume a) they didn't hear these undeniable efforts because they were too focused on their little world or b) they weren't undeniable. Even with my mild disappointment, I prefer Love Vs. Money to most of the top ten, but I don't think the case for A is that strong.

Pretty sure I gave some other possible reasons in my essay, Anthony.

But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:59 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

well, I didn't vote for The-Dream (LVH was about my 17th favorite album of the year), I'm just saying it's disingenuous to refer to an artist's critical peak/breakthrough as a sophomore slump just because you happened to like the debut more.

xpost

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

― ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:09 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest

nah the consensus is "woops we missed his first album"

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

non-indie artists who are not overtly commercial = minor cult figures
indie artists who are not overtly commercial = big deals who we should just expect to see dominate supposedly generalist discourse and lists

*pats self on back*

― The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol @ dn

when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Ha ha, me too.

And yeah, pretty funny to bemoan "minor cult figures" while defending this particular Top 10.

i don't think i ever said maxwell was less important than girls or whomever (though yeah didn't realize his album was THAT big a seller, my bad), just that I wouldn't be sure his inability to beat them is neither a) shocking in the context of previous pazz'n'jops or b) cause for concern. He still did well.

maxwell probably sold more than anyone else above him in the list right?

Hey, did you guys know pop-bachata group Aventura starts a four-night headlining stand at MSG tonight?

I mean, as long as we're talking about who's big vs. who's important...

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

those are two v different things. I think there is little evidence that the first half isn't correct though. Where are people reading longform music criticism in any sizable numbers? I mean, outside of things called "indie" in this thread? (I would say Okayplayer board probably, but I also think the general sensibilities and values of those boards are fairly "indie")

I def agree that people should not just follow the readers though, and I've think we've done that better than about anyone the second half of this decade. We've taken a staunchly indie audience and opened up a lot of doors for them, at risk to our reputation and therefore business. Not as many ppl choose to walk through those doors as I'd like but we keep trying.

But like I said upthread if you want people to read about R&B in any large numbers, I think your best bet is to turn music crit readers into R&B fans, not R&B fans into music crit readers. And if you disagree, plz circle back to the question above and let me know the names of the successful pop and R&B outlets doing what you'd like them to do, and how many readers they get. Considering you actually think our site, with its 2.5mm monthly readers and 1.5mm twitter followers, is merely "a niche website with a very specific demographic" I don't think you'll be able to locate an answer.

<em>when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Ha ha, me too.</em>

And me!

<em>And yeah, pretty funny to bemoan "minor cult figures" while defending this particular Top 10.</em>

Not to rehash my Tumblr but:

<blockquote>cumulative scans (through 1/10): AnCo 148k; Phoenix 277k; Neko Case 180k; YYYs 201k; DPs 58k; Grizzly Bear 153k; The xx 66k; Raekwon 154k; Flaming Lips ??; Girls 27k.</blockquote>

(oh jeez, sorry about the html/bb mixup, ugh)

Maxwell's by far the biggest seller of the upper reaches of the list (until Jay-Z at #27)

i apologize for calling him a minor cult figure, now can we bitch about green day's sale-to-p'n'j-stature ratio, dudes barely made the top 40

btw, sorry for being a dick there. I only feel comfortable being one to the lex since he's such an unrepentant one about us. btw he unironically posted the "a niche website with a very specific demographic" comment on the single jukebox.

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend

p.s. lex: the #1 LP in america this week is vampire weekend

The fuck.

seriously

well done, vampire weekend up there with susan boyle and ke$ha now

Can't wait for "That's What Friends Are For '10"

Not sure why that should be surprising...?

Score one for the indie kids. In a rather amazing turn of events, Vampire Weekend — they of the piqued Polos, pan-ethnic pop stylings and proudly independent label — will snag the top spot on next week's Billboard albums chart. And the competition wasn't even close.

Contra, the band's second album, sold close to 124,000 copies in its first week to debut at #1, besting runner-up Susan Boyle's I Dreamed a Dream by nearly 50,000 albums. Released on XL Recordings, Contra is the first independent album to debut at #1 since Pearl Jam's Backspacer bowed at the top of the charts back in September (that album was released on the band's own Monkeywrench label but sold exclusively through mega-retailer Target, independent stores and online). Contra is also the highest indie-rock debut since both the Shins and the Arcade Fire released albums — Wincing the Night Away and Neon Bible — that opened at #2 back in 2007. It's the first #1 album in XL's 20-year history, not to mention the label's highest debut since Thom Yorke's The Eraser bowed at #2 in 2006.

didn't you hear jaymc? indie is a little nothing that nobody cares about.

Not that I agree with much of what Lex is posting here, but Scott, haven't you been expending a bunch of energy on this thread explaining the precise niche and specific demographics of your website?

P4k still regularly publishes many of the best music writers working today, and their news section and features are also consistently excellent. i used to read it almost exclusively, and even though over the past few years i've branched out to read other sites too, it's still one of my favorite things to read.

I mean, my line for a while now has been that most everything in pop music, broadly defined, is a niche, including the mainstream. It's a generalization, obviously, and clearly Lex is throwing a dagger there. But is that niche/specific thing altogether bad in Pfork's case? It's done very well by it. (xpost)

xpost

(i also wish blogs/more publications would follow P4k in (1) splitting up their RSS feeds into categories that make sense and (2) using sensible, non-bullshit headlines for their stories. makes things so much better for people using feed readers.)