Do we have a PAZZ AND JOB 2009 thread yet?

jon i deliberately distinguished the parts of that 'graph where i was responding to you and where i was talking about all the "yeah jay's kinda boring, but great hook!"

but whatever, let's get angry

& here's the thing i really really strongly disagree w/ scott about -- (or maybe i agree with him, and i just think it needs to be stated this way) -- the idea that readers of criticism dont care about R&B is, in my opinion, a failure of RHETORIC. That the values celebrated in this poll & on pfork are not nearly as written in stone as they may appear.

My official involvement was strictly data-handling after the ballots were submitted, I didn't do any recruiting, metal or otherwise. Not intentionally, anyway. Obviously I can't control the massive internet ripple effects caused by my offhand comments in Rolling Metal. But I don't actually like Mastodon, Baroness or Converge, myself, so if it was a subconscious secret plot on my part, it backfired.

The results of the ILM Metal poll are interesting in this regard, but Kerr is still rolling them out in another thread, so I won't spoil his slow reveal.

and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

Like I said, I didn't vote this year. I'm not even convinced it would've made my list if I had.

But I wouldn't say that it's "fatally flawed" -- sure, Jay-Z doesn't sound that great on it, but there are other aspects of the song that more than make up for that. I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

And even if wouldn't have made my hypothetical P&J ballot, it's still in my top 10 R&B/hip-hop singles of the year, along with Amerie's "Why R U?", Mos Def's "Casa Bey," DJ Quik and Kurupt's "Hey Playa!," The Clipse's "I'm Good," Ciara's "Love Sex Magic," Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," Whitney Houston's "Million Dollar Bill," Kid Cudi's "Day N Nite," and The-Dream's "Sweat It Out."

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

Why? Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be, but there's a lot more to the song than just his delivery. Alicia owns the hook, my favorite part of the song and I really actually love the beat. So, yes, the vocals can be a little lackluster compared to earlier Jigga, but still be one of the ten best singles of the year.

I'm not angry, I just hated the inference whether it was aimed at me or not. It's lame.

And ha to jaymc getting to the same point as me.

xp That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that. (I thought by #11 you meant Mos Def!) (And yeah, I don't want to quibble about the specifics of r&b comebacks; I'm not about to look at all those past years' polls again. I've done that enough for one month. My point is that having a cult r&b album or two in the top 10 -- say, D'Angelo's at #6 and Jill Scott at #9 in 2000 -- was hardly a rare occurrence in the past. If you're right about them never making the top 5, I stand corrected.)

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

and xps to myself, the idea that the audience for criticism is set in stone is not correct, i dont think -- you speak to a crowd, the people who you speak to are gonna respond. there are lots of people out there who arent reached by criticism because people arent reaching them in the right way, imo.

HI DERE otm

Ciara's "Love Sex Magic,"

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

yeah i get this but you can't really get away from the rapping in a rap song, and jay-z's flow on ESOM makes me flinch even if i try to ignore it.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

i didn't mean crème-de-la-crème in terms of artists - i meant in terms of songs - basically if i think i song has a massive, obvious flaw then no matter how much its other elements make up for it to the point that i can enjoy the thing, i don't feel i can vote for it in a ballot - save that for songs i feel don't have flaws. i love every moment and every aspect of every track on my ballot.

Okay, but my acknowledging that Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be doesn't make it a "massive, obvious flaw".

no i agree with lex, if you can't think of ten songs you love completely w/o reservations, why are you submitting a list? not only is jay not as good as he used to be, imo he's just not good. that's my position at least, and all i'm saying is that if you agree that jay's not any good, you really can't think of ten songs that don't have an awful performance on them? if you love the whole thing, more power to you.

xps

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

i mean shit, if there's no audience for well-written r&b criticism i guess i should just give up now, huh?

I don't think Jay's performance is "awful" on that song though. I think it fits the song just fine, even if it isn't Reasonable Doubt level.

(xpost)

alright fair nuff, that's cool then

I mean, I can love a Bob Dylan song and still objectively admit his vocals are shit, right?

i mean, there's BARELY an audience for well-written indie rock criticism

That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that.

when combined with the overlap between the singles and album top tens, you could definitely make the case for an increase in indie solipsism. But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

i think the real test of how pernicious this indie strangehold would be whether it ignores some upswing in pop quality, not whether it dominates in a slow year

Whiney OTM. I don't think 90% of your average daily, non-crit Pitchfork visitor even reads the reviews. They come for the news updates and listen to the streaming tracks.

you thinking The-Dream's 2nd album was a sophomore album doesn't make it an objective truth.

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year. Or wait, maybe "Like a Surgeon," too, since I seem to recall Singles Jukebox reviewing that and I probably gave it a cursory listen, but it didn't stick. Anyway, I have a huge soft spot for that kind of light disco-funk, with the Chic-like walking bassline (e.g., Omarion's "Entourage" or some of those Snoop Dogg/Neptunes collabs or even Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," which I also listed), so it was something I immediately liked. If you want to recommend more R&B songs with that same "generic" sound, I'd love to hear them.

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

Quoting scottpl from above:

Maybe I'm wrong and there is some sort of place for discussion of this stuff, but I've seen us and RA and Stereogum and some other places thrive and/or get a foothold while the old VV, Blender, the thing CNET tried to start, Maura's Idolator, Stylus (which was about 5% less indie than p4k anyway) drift away and I feel like by now everyone complaining about that or missing them are people, say, posting in this thread.

xp Well, I get the idea that a lot of people who like The-Dream more than me (and like his second album more than you) do perceive that there was an upswing in pop quality in 2009. I actually think it was a decent year myself; I like Lady Gaga more than you. But right, like I said in the essay (the part with the "go out on a limb" aside you're keying in on), I don't expect most of my favorites to place anyway, in good years or bad years, since they haven't done so in a long time.

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

i think it's better than love/hate

the market for intelligent writing about anything seems to be rather small right now . . . and perhaps always has been?

depends on a) how you define intelligent and b) what you mean by "anything"

market's the same small-but-vocal minority, but the ability to make money off it is IOYVFIY:IOUGEOU(G#R*)Y#)TG#()&Y#)*&T#)(&T#)*^T*FO*YF

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:06 PM (51 seconds ago)

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year

you could do worse than to check out "echo", which is incredible http://www.last.fm/music/Ciara/_/Echo

money and hate are on a similar level for me but undoubtedly money codes more "catnip to critics"

xp I never liked D'Angelo, Jill Scott, or Erykah Badu much either, tbh. Or Lauryn Hill, who did a lot better than Top 5 one year. Not a big neo-soul/alt-r&b/whatever fan in general. But I'm not really sure what me liking them, or you liking them, has to do with their P&J placement.

I'm sorry, but when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Carry on.

TS: L/H vs. LM aside, we're talking about whether albums in the top 20 deserved to be in top 10, and what it says about the polling base that they weren't. We can either assume a) they didn't hear these undeniable efforts because they were too focused on their little world or b) they weren't undeniable. Even with my mild disappointment, I prefer Love Vs. Money to most of the top ten, but I don't think the case for A is that strong.

Pretty sure I gave some other possible reasons in my essay, Anthony.

But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:59 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

well, I didn't vote for The-Dream (LVH was about my 17th favorite album of the year), I'm just saying it's disingenuous to refer to an artist's critical peak/breakthrough as a sophomore slump just because you happened to like the debut more.

xpost

love/hate is probably my favorite album of the decade but i love the new one too...besides guys like kellman and deej from what i can tell the consensus seems to be money > hate though

― ethan PADGY (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:09 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest

nah the consensus is "woops we missed his first album"

hey bro maxwell was one of the best selling albums of the year & he was really not a 'minor cult' figure for R&B fans

non-indie artists who are not overtly commercial = minor cult figures
indie artists who are not overtly commercial = big deals who we should just expect to see dominate supposedly generalist discourse and lists

*pats self on back*

― The GAPDY Band - "You Jopped A Bomb On Me" (some dude), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol @ dn

when I see Love/Hate I think Blackout In The Red Room.

Ha ha, me too.

And yeah, pretty funny to bemoan "minor cult figures" while defending this particular Top 10.

i don't think i ever said maxwell was less important than girls or whomever (though yeah didn't realize his album was THAT big a seller, my bad), just that I wouldn't be sure his inability to beat them is neither a) shocking in the context of previous pazz'n'jops or b) cause for concern. He still did well.

maxwell probably sold more than anyone else above him in the list right?

Hey, did you guys know pop-bachata group Aventura starts a four-night headlining stand at MSG tonight?

I mean, as long as we're talking about who's big vs. who's important...

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

those are two v different things. I think there is little evidence that the first half isn't correct though. Where are people reading longform music criticism in any sizable numbers? I mean, outside of things called "indie" in this thread? (I would say Okayplayer board probably, but I also think the general sensibilities and values of those boards are fairly "indie")

I def agree that people should not just follow the readers though, and I've think we've done that better than about anyone the second half of this decade. We've taken a staunchly indie audience and opened up a lot of doors for them, at risk to our reputation and therefore business. Not as many ppl choose to walk through those doors as I'd like but we keep trying.

But like I said upthread if you want people to read about R&B in any large numbers, I think your best bet is to turn music crit readers into R&B fans, not R&B fans into music crit readers. And if you disagree, plz circle back to the question above and let me know the names of the successful pop and R&B outlets doing what you'd like them to do, and how many readers they get. Considering you actually think our site, with its 2.5mm monthly readers and 1.5mm twitter followers, is merely "a niche website with a very specific demographic" I don't think you'll be able to locate an answer.