Do we have a PAZZ AND JOB 2009 thread yet?

My friend raises this interesting point...

if it's so terrible that indie rock is in the top 5, what SHOULD have been there? Like and I mean things that people could actually rally behind, not just random shit you like

Tom Ewing: "It’s like when I first started blogging and I got the reputation of being fiercely pro-pop and anti-indie, and I played up to that a little bit, but what I was being contrary against was my immediate online vicinity."

THAT, my friends is indie guilt defined.

xpost

gucci mane seems to be getting a bit of attention online...

whiney, is your friend scottpl?

I can easily see The-Dream or Maxwell (neither of whom I like much, btw) finishing Top 5 in an earlier of era of P&J, Whiney. For starters.

I think Tom's onto something here:

My point is that at the moment we have one very big taste-cluster and it’s centred on the Pitchfork Top 10. This is no fault of Pitchfork’s and indeed the editors and publisher should be very proud and happy about it. But there’s also no reason why competing large taste-clusters shouldn’t exist, large enough that P4K’s Top 10 only crosses over with 30% or 40% of the P&J Top 10.

Neither The-Dream or Maxwell making the top 5 would really make my day, personally. The-Dream would especially be a case of P'n'J praising the album after the one they should have.

I think what finally made "New York State of Mind" finally click with me was hearing it in a bunch of different settings, it just sounded huge and anthemic - a quality that seems to have been missing from hip-hop for a while now (cue the autogoon crew popping up with dozens of refs to "anthemic" Gucci mixtape moments). I liked how bold and brash it sounded, that's all. Wasn't my single of the year, in fact it wasn't even top five. It just had a quality that a lot of other rap singles have been missing. I mean, all you guys complaining about swag, this isn't Jay's young man swag, this is "fuck you, I run this city" swag.

― you gone float up with it (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:43 AM (5 hours ago)

i know this will have already been addressed but it sounds awful like you're grading on a curve here - "well hip hop sucks and this is the only one i heard on the radio so i'll vote for this!" cool if you dig the big hook or whatever, but it's a failure as a rap song considering, you know, jay is a below-average rapper and he sounds as awful on this as he's sounded for the last five years. and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

"...sounds an awful lot like..."

I was actually wondering whether Glenn McDonald recruited metal voters! (Which would help explain that mysterious Mastodon/Baroness/Converge convergence between #18 and #24, which apparently nobody but me cares about.

I care very much. Both Mastodon and Baroness were high in my ballot. I think it's also remarkable that Sunn O))) (#42) beat out Them Crooked Vultures (#58), a band with considerable star power. Also:

Kylesa, Static Tensions (71)
Cobalt, Gin (136)
Slayer, World Painted Blood (160)

Still plenty of stadium rock with Muse, Wolfmother, Cheap Trick, Alice in Chains, Black Crowes, Pearl Jam, arguably Dinosaur Jr. I didn't even know about the Black Crowes album.

also the closest analogy in an earlier top 5 to maxwell's album(cult r&b figure with some pop success finally makes another album) would be erykah badu at no. 5 last year, which wasn't that long ago.

PJ Harvery is a band whose lead singer is Polly Jean Harvey, kind of like how Sade is a band fronted by Sade Adu.

i think this was the case until TBYML - since then she's been pj harvey, solo artist.

fair point, although I like to think that in the context of the time frame being discussed I'm still right

how long into our vessel reaches curvy colombian waters?

Into?

typo but then again

last year, which wasn't that long ago

Which was the point of my essay, partly.

we have one very big taste-cluster and it’s centred on the Pitchfork Top 10. ...there’s also no reason why competing large taste-clusters shouldn’t exist, large enough that P4K’s Top 10 only crosses over with 30% or 40% of the P&J Top 10.

Which was another point of my essay.

i know this will have already been addressed but it sounds awful like you're grading on a curve here - "well hip hop sucks and this is the only one i heard on the radio so i'll vote for this!" cool if you dig the big hook or whatever, but it's a failure as a rap song considering, you know, jay is a below-average rapper and he sounds as awful on this as he's sounded for the last five years. and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

First of all, I don't think the song is fatally flawed. Secondly, I don't think Jay sounds that awful. I think it's one of the only two songs on the album where he actually sounds somewhat inspired. Of course it isn't a patch on his glory days, but I think his flow fits the song pretty well. I voted for it because I think its a fucking great pop song with a lot of swagger, not because its a well executed example of hip-hop. I guess I might have brought this on by making my point about hip-hop lacking "anthems" lately, but whatever. Also, fuck you for the inference that I don't listen to enough singles.

the point of your essay (partly) is that a type of album that made the top 5 in 2008 only made it to no. 11 in 2009?

sorry, no. 14.

and my point in pointing that out is that cult r&b comebacks HAVEN'T regularly made the top 5...unless you wanna count the Neville Brothers in 1987 or something.

Maybe that was a little overboard, but ffs I hate that more than anything, "you have different taste than me, so you must not listen to enough music to be as enlightened as I am"!

Of course it isn't a patch on his glory days

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

My annual whine--Not enough critics who listen to stuff other than indie rock participate in the Pazz & Jop poll. The P & J poobahs every year say they reach out to be fully inclusive with the electorate, but it seems some folks who write about non-indie can't be bothered to be part of this or are somehow unaware of the poll. I've tried to encourage fellow writers in the past, but did not do so this year.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, January 20, 2010 6:44 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

i just want to say and i know this has been addressed upthread to some degree (also, whiney OTM re: black people like indie too) but basically the thing about becoming a critic & being aware that you're voting in this poll is that for 99% of all-genre critics, they go through a not-well-thought-out bit of "what does REAL MUSIC sound like?" that ends with rap critics giving up a lot of ground to other genres aesthetically (& im sure the same is true to some degrees with other genres) -- that just the act of seeing yourself as a critic is like "maybe i should find out what these yeah yeah yeahs sound like" & that 'interesting ballots' that reject critical consensus as a baseline of appreciating music are usually the product of ppl who are concentrated on an aesthetic outside of crit, who are self-aware enough to look at what ppl are listening to who dont exist wholly within an indie rock consensus bubble -- i.e. andy k's list, which yes has a few indie-approved albums, but it genuinely feels like a list with a strong aesthetic worldview that is informed by multiple discourses & filtered through his own worldview, that hes not simply like "man i love all these R&B records but animal collective are very 'worthy'"

jon i deliberately distinguished the parts of that 'graph where i was responding to you and where i was talking about all the "yeah jay's kinda boring, but great hook!"

but whatever, let's get angry

& here's the thing i really really strongly disagree w/ scott about -- (or maybe i agree with him, and i just think it needs to be stated this way) -- the idea that readers of criticism dont care about R&B is, in my opinion, a failure of RHETORIC. That the values celebrated in this poll & on pfork are not nearly as written in stone as they may appear.

My official involvement was strictly data-handling after the ballots were submitted, I didn't do any recruiting, metal or otherwise. Not intentionally, anyway. Obviously I can't control the massive internet ripple effects caused by my offhand comments in Rolling Metal. But I don't actually like Mastodon, Baroness or Converge, myself, so if it was a subconscious secret plot on my part, it backfired.

The results of the ILM Metal poll are interesting in this regard, but Kerr is still rolling them out in another thread, so I won't spoil his slow reveal.

and tbh to everyone who acknowledges the song is fatally flawed but votes for it anyway: either listen to more singles or stop voting for singles

Like I said, I didn't vote this year. I'm not even convinced it would've made my list if I had.

But I wouldn't say that it's "fatally flawed" -- sure, Jay-Z doesn't sound that great on it, but there are other aspects of the song that more than make up for that. I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

And even if wouldn't have made my hypothetical P&J ballot, it's still in my top 10 R&B/hip-hop singles of the year, along with Amerie's "Why R U?", Mos Def's "Casa Bey," DJ Quik and Kurupt's "Hey Playa!," The Clipse's "I'm Good," Ciara's "Love Sex Magic," Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," Whitney Houston's "Million Dollar Bill," Kid Cudi's "Day N Nite," and The-Dream's "Sweat It Out."

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

Why? Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be, but there's a lot more to the song than just his delivery. Alicia owns the hook, my favorite part of the song and I really actually love the beat. So, yes, the vocals can be a little lackluster compared to earlier Jigga, but still be one of the ten best singles of the year.

I'm not angry, I just hated the inference whether it was aimed at me or not. It's lame.

And ha to jaymc getting to the same point as me.

xp That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that. (I thought by #11 you meant Mos Def!) (And yeah, I don't want to quibble about the specifics of r&b comebacks; I'm not about to look at all those past years' polls again. I've done that enough for one month. My point is that having a cult r&b album or two in the top 10 -- say, D'Angelo's at #6 and Jill Scott at #9 in 2000 -- was hardly a rare occurrence in the past. If you're right about them never making the top 5, I stand corrected.)

right, i get how one could kinda enjoy and even defend the song despite this, but really, this should disbar it completely from being one of the TEN BEST singles of the whole year! reserve that ballot for the fucking crème de la crème, not the enjoyable-but-flawed.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

and xps to myself, the idea that the audience for criticism is set in stone is not correct, i dont think -- you speak to a crowd, the people who you speak to are gonna respond. there are lots of people out there who arent reached by criticism because people arent reaching them in the right way, imo.

HI DERE otm

Ciara's "Love Sex Magic,"

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

I don't always listen to rap for the rapping.

yeah i get this but you can't really get away from the rapping in a rap song, and jay-z's flow on ESOM makes me flinch even if i try to ignore it.

This is bullshit. If you think a song is one of the best songs of the year, regardless of how it compares to the rest of the artist's output, you should vote for it. THIS is not only grading on a curve, it's grading on one horribly unfair to anyone who ever releases something that gets universal acclaim.

i didn't mean crème-de-la-crème in terms of artists - i meant in terms of songs - basically if i think i song has a massive, obvious flaw then no matter how much its other elements make up for it to the point that i can enjoy the thing, i don't feel i can vote for it in a ballot - save that for songs i feel don't have flaws. i love every moment and every aspect of every track on my ballot.

Okay, but my acknowledging that Jay's flow is weaker than it used to be doesn't make it a "massive, obvious flaw".

no i agree with lex, if you can't think of ten songs you love completely w/o reservations, why are you submitting a list? not only is jay not as good as he used to be, imo he's just not good. that's my position at least, and all i'm saying is that if you agree that jay's not any good, you really can't think of ten songs that don't have an awful performance on them? if you love the whole thing, more power to you.

xps

i'm so tired of arguing with people who insist that there's no audience for well-written non-indie (or specifically r&b) criticism, and that we should just follow the readers1 follow the readers! as though cultural commentators are unable to LEAD audiences, but deej otm

i mean shit, if there's no audience for well-written r&b criticism i guess i should just give up now, huh?

I don't think Jay's performance is "awful" on that song though. I think it fits the song just fine, even if it isn't Reasonable Doubt level.

(xpost)

alright fair nuff, that's cool then

I mean, I can love a Bob Dylan song and still objectively admit his vocals are shit, right?

i mean, there's BARELY an audience for well-written indie rock criticism

That there was a major change at the top of the poll, even between 2008 and 2009. Not sure how you missed that.

when combined with the overlap between the singles and album top tens, you could definitely make the case for an increase in indie solipsism. But if a comeback from a fairly minor IMO cult R&B figure and a sophomore slump from an otherwise promising artist are the ones being slighted, then it could be argued that indie guilt (which your article appears to argue for by baiting people with "you're all just AOR MOR/wish you'd actually go out on a limb" talk) wouldn't have necessarily made for that much better a list.

i think the real test of how pernicious this indie strangehold would be whether it ignores some upswing in pop quality, not whether it dominates in a slow year

Whiney OTM. I don't think 90% of your average daily, non-crit Pitchfork visitor even reads the reviews. They come for the news updates and listen to the streaming tracks.

you thinking The-Dream's 2nd album was a sophomore album doesn't make it an objective truth.

ha the idea that anyone could pick THIS enjoyable-but-generic ciara track from her output this year is actually more baffling now

It's the only Ciara track I heard this year. Or wait, maybe "Like a Surgeon," too, since I seem to recall Singles Jukebox reviewing that and I probably gave it a cursory listen, but it didn't stick. Anyway, I have a huge soft spot for that kind of light disco-funk, with the Chic-like walking bassline (e.g., Omarion's "Entourage" or some of those Snoop Dogg/Neptunes collabs or even Ryan Leslie's "You're Not My Girl," which I also listed), so it was something I immediately liked. If you want to recommend more R&B songs with that same "generic" sound, I'd love to hear them.

yeah, al, but even chuck - the only guy who brought it up - couldn't get excited for it! if people want to say it's equal to or better than Love/Hate fine, but my point is that I don't see a lot of that happening.

Quoting scottpl from above:

Maybe I'm wrong and there is some sort of place for discussion of this stuff, but I've seen us and RA and Stereogum and some other places thrive and/or get a foothold while the old VV, Blender, the thing CNET tried to start, Maura's Idolator, Stylus (which was about 5% less indie than p4k anyway) drift away and I feel like by now everyone complaining about that or missing them are people, say, posting in this thread.

xp Well, I get the idea that a lot of people who like The-Dream more than me (and like his second album more than you) do perceive that there was an upswing in pop quality in 2009. I actually think it was a decent year myself; I like Lady Gaga more than you. But right, like I said in the essay (the part with the "go out on a limb" aside you're keying in on), I don't expect most of my favorites to place anyway, in good years or bad years, since they haven't done so in a long time.