New Order:Sublime or Ridiculous?

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And most of all.

he got looooooooove technique

― The Good Dr. Bill (Andrew Unterberger), Friday, 30 July 2004 19:33 (nineteen years ago) link

I havn't listened to anything of NO since Brotherhood, after being very into Joy Division when I first heard Movement I couldn't believe how good it was, and VERY different, to what else was happening, I love "power curruption and lies" but from there on it leaves me flat.
That time in music when "movement" came out still sends shivers down my spine. I will misquote Peter Hook years ago "I don't like a lot of music, but the music I do like I get more out of than anything else in life"

amen

― Tim Dixon, Friday, 30 July 2004 21:18 (nineteen years ago) link

You know, I should emphasize that they were very important in my 'musical development' (ha), maybe more than I might let on when I get sick of all the "better than Joy Division" talk. Being able to go back to what I'd hated as a child and appreciate at least some of it in a new way, to be able to get something out of those beats and synths really was important. They did in a weird way kind of get me into a new of hearing pop music, of being able to embrace the idea of produced, synthy studio pop and dance, which was a gateway into embracing all kinds of things from fusion to prog to AOR to hair metal to pop/dance as well as IDM and electronica. (I wonder if even minimalism could go in there.) I could trace on some level my liking for things from Magnetic Fields to Immersion to Building Castles Out of Matchsticks to being able to accept New Order. I just never listen to them anymore.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 31 July 2004 02:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Nothing wrong with thinking of it that way -- some music is the perfect gateway drug that you never feel the need to go back to.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 31 July 2004 02:53 (nineteen years ago) link

CEREMONY

― tk, Saturday, 31 July 2004 04:03 (nineteen years ago) link

This is where I break from most other hardcore New Order fans: outside of "Chosen Time" and "Dreams Never End," I can't stand Movement.

― The Good Dr. Bill (Andrew Unterberger), Saturday, 31 July 2004 04:14 (nineteen years ago) link

This thread is an example of why I'm so happy I discovered ILM. I've loved JD/NO since 1979/80 when I saw the former play live, and I was devastated and thrilled by their beauty. NO's sparkling tangential arc away from the dark JD mothership has been fascinating and, on occasion, just as gorgeous. But it's been goofy and dumb, too, which is important.

So, yeah, sublime and ridiculous, of course.

― David A. (Davant), Saturday, 31 July 2004 04:59 (nineteen years ago) link

xpost: Actually Andrew, I'm with you on that one.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Saturday, 31 July 2004 07:17 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't imagine anyone actually "hating" New Order. Just can't do it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 1 August 2004 15:55 (nineteen years ago) link

I can, but when I imagine this person I totally want to punch the guy.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 1 August 2004 17:52 (nineteen years ago) link

New Order are so good musically it doesn't make the slightest difference to me what lyrics Bernie comes up with. If there are New Order songs/albums I don't like as much as others, it's not because of the lyrics, it's because of something else. With New Order, you're just going to get bad lyrics here and there - it comes with the package.

I recall Bernard saying he was having trouble with the lyrics for the new album, so, I have no reason to believe anything will change in that respect. Don't like it? Too bad. That's New Order.

― Bimble (bimble), Sunday, 1 August 2004 21:22 (nineteen years ago) link

royxmuzak: I'd be worried if you didn't look so sweet in your band photo;)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 1 August 2004 21:41 (nineteen years ago) link

eight months pass...

(Haw, I've just now seen that, Sundar.)

Anyone else going to see them in Hyde Park? Anyone else already seen them this year/seeing them somewhere else?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Friday, 8 April 2005 19:44 (nineteen years ago) link

The Japanese version of Krafty is superbly ridiculous!

― mike h. (mike h.), Friday, 8 April 2005 20:21 (nineteen years ago) link

Ok, anyone seen them ever?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

I did in '85, '86 and '87. They sucked in '87 only. Gave up on them after Republic though I still love their ridiculously sublime earier stuff.

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:02 (nineteen years ago) link

The live '93 version of "As It Is When It Was" on the box set is worth the price of the set alone. I believe Hooky when he admits that, when mixing the live tapes, he cried remembering how good they were that summer.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:12 (nineteen years ago) link

Is that on the Retro box set?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 14 April 2005 12:59 (nineteen years ago) link

yuppers.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 14 April 2005 20:48 (nineteen years ago) link

three months pass...

Anyone else already seen them this year/seeing them somewhere else?

Saw them for the first time last weekend at the Fuji Rock Festival. It was worth every minute of the 15 year wait. They did Krafty in Japanese on MTV Japan and then repeated the feat in front of 20 000 people later that evening. The set-list was very well balanced and also included 4 Joy Division songs. I don't know what else can be said about these guys, but I love the hell out of them.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Monday, 8 August 2005 05:41 (eighteen years ago) link

They did Krafty in Japanese

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 August 2005 05:45 (eighteen years ago) link

They even put the words up on the big screens so the crowd could sing along. Barney's pronunciation was surprisingly good. Those in attendance were duly impressed.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Monday, 8 August 2005 05:55 (eighteen years ago) link

The Japanese version of "Krafty" is on the US itunes store now, btw. I can't find it on Soulseek.

― Telephonething (Telephonething), Monday, 8 August 2005 05:58 (eighteen years ago) link

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3OYEBOKL1KI7Z365CSMF0U0US6

― mike h. (mike h.), Monday, 8 August 2005 21:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Awesome. Thanks Mike.

― Telephonething (Telephonething), Monday, 8 August 2005 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

seven months pass...

So thanks to a tip-off from a friend I was able to download and enjoy this show:

22 JUN 82 Rollingstone - Milan, Italy 60

Truth, Dreams Never End, Chosen Time, ICB, Leave Me Alone, Denial,
Procession, 586, Temptation, Everything's Gone Green, When I'm With You

Some absolutely brutal performances of Movement-era stuff -- and it's all topped off with a performance of Sparks' "When I'm With You!" What a band.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:06 (eighteen years ago) link

(And said Sparks cover -- apparently the only time ever they did it, and definitely nowhere near as polished as the original -- is amazing. They completely New Orderize the song, and it balances on the verge of suddenly collapsing and coming back together just so -- Bernard goes 'this is why we don't do encores, this is a bad idea!' at one point, and yet somehow it still works.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I know it's shallow to be like this, but the level of we're-not-worthy idol-worship that's been attached to New Order in recent years has been really fucking offputting - people start to sound like fuckin' Beatles fanatics

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Kill me if I ever get THAT bad. (My first post upthread notwithstanding.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, New Order aren't very good. They had 3 interesting albums in the 1980s, and ever since then they've sounded like a luke warm cup of tea. And the lyrics...oh boy. I'd give them a *ridiculous", but it's been 15 years since I imagine they provoked a feeling that strong in anyone.

― paulhw (paulhw), Saturday, 18 March 2006 23:24 (eighteen years ago) link

"in anyone."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 19 March 2006 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Someone complaining about NO lyrics = Someone complaining about hip-hop misogyny.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 19 March 2006 00:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Could somebody please repost that Japanese version of Krafty?

― Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Sunday, 19 March 2006 00:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Someone complaining about NO lyrics = Someone complaining about hip-hop misogyny

this comparison doesn't really hold water, unless you're seriously wanting to equate formal objections (NO) with objections to content (misogyny)

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 19 March 2006 00:49 (eighteen years ago) link

NO lyrics = dumb
hip-hop misogyny = dumb

there.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 19 March 2006 02:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Formal objections ARE content objections, sez this devoted neo-formalist.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 19 March 2006 02:17 (eighteen years ago) link

right, but in the former case dumb carries no moral weight of any kind, unless one wants to argue that aesthetic offenses are immoral (in which case one must hie with all due speed to the late nineteenth century & stay there); in the latter, people aren't bitching about how poorly the misogynistic lyrics are written - to the contrary, really

I dunno, I just object strenuously to the notion that bitching about misogyny in any lyrics, hip-hop or otherwise, is somehow misguided - whereas the case against bitching about New Order lyrics is rather clearer: they obviously don't mean anything, you can just ignore them, even if you don't ignore them they're not likely to do much, textually

I do understand that this is a pointless argument, don't get me wrong, I just hate it when people wanna equate saying nothing in particular with saying (say) that it's cool to treat women like shit

x-post Alfred you'll go a long ways to find a more devoted formalist than me, but to conflate/equate form & content doesn't relieve content of its various burdens

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 19 March 2006 02:22 (eighteen years ago) link

(nb my "former case/latter case" refers to J.D.'s explanation)

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 19 March 2006 02:22 (eighteen years ago) link

But if I was feeling sinister I could argue that NO's lyrics trivialize the complexity of love as much as hip-hop lyrics do.

Fine. I retract my analogy. I was playing devil's advocate, in part because it's so tiresome to read bitching about NO's lyrics in 2006.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:29 (eighteen years ago) link

one year passes...

Anyone still have the Japanese version of Krafty?

― roxymuzak, Monday, 26 November 2007 05:58 (sixteen years ago) link

one year passes...

They always sound a little unfamiliar, like I'm listening to them for the first time. I think I've put off listening to them in the past because I want to preserve the newness of the songs and the feeling they give me (when I hear them, my stomach knots up -- I don't want that to go away).

these two sentences are kind of perfect. i am going to use them as my excuse for never remembering what any individual new order song is called.

― king lame (c sharp major), Saturday, 24 January 2009 16:13 (fifteen years ago) link

ridiculous: REPUBLIC, MOVEMENT

Cripes, did I really suggest that Movement is ridiculous? I should be flogged for that.

― Alex in NYC, Saturday, 24 January 2009 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Milan show Ned mentions ^^^ is crazy. Some aggressive presentations of Movement songs - Lots of echoes, kinda dubby in parts. One of my favorite live bootlegs ever.

― Capitaine Jay Vee, Saturday, 24 January 2009 16:47 (fifteen years ago) link

Haha, Alex, this is the second time you've apologized for that on this thread!

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 24 January 2009 16:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Movement is great, Republic is even better.

No, I'm serious.

― ilxor, Saturday, 24 January 2009 18:13 (fifteen years ago) link

One forgets these things as one ages, alas.

― Alex in NYC, Saturday, 24 January 2009 20:14 (fifteen years ago) link

one year passes...

A google image search for "new order" "gay sperm" is pretty OTM.

― David Allah Coal (sexyDancer), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Two Lone Swordsmen named one of their tracks after that famous bass cabinet phrase.

― brotherlovesdub, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:12 (thirteen years ago) link

eleven months pass...

what the hell: New Order gigs this Fall, w/o Peter Hook?!?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20110905_neworder.shtml

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Monday, 5 September 2011 14:58 (twelve years ago) link

well, for a good cause, so that's nice, and nice the gillian is back too.

― akm, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:18 (twelve years ago) link

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