What's with that constant cymbal tapping in jazz drumming?

anyone wanna buy some of the turk hi hats off me? ;)

My current fave ride is a Sabian AAX dry ride.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread so some one may have mentioned it but I think I have a partial answer to the original question.

Early records were acoustically recorded. The band would crowd into a room and a large horn would capture the sound directly into a mechanical cutting device. If you listen to popular music from this time you will notice an absence of drums or sudden noises as these would make the mechanical cutting needle jump out of its groove. As a result many bands would leave their drum kits at home and improvise the rhythm section on wooden blocks and tiny hand cymbals. There are stories of early jazz bands traveling to Europe with full kits and seeing the locals replicate their thin recorded drums and then of course... blowing them away.

In 1925 electric recording became feasible but it took a ridiculously long time for the modern drum sound to appear in most recordings. This was in part due to slow to adapt engineers and producers and also the depression, during which record sales fells from historic highs of 150 mill in 1929 to 15 million by 1933. (proving that out of the old adage of entertainment and the price of heroin, only one is recession proof.)

By then, I guess, the sound was pretty well ingrained.

So maybe the cymbal was a technical thing as much as much as a musical one?

Occurs to me that there are a few jazz drummers I really dig who have a more drum-centered, less ride-heavy approach -- Hamid Drake comes to mind, and Ed Blackwell.

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

could be a pavlovian response to the seinfeldesque phrasing

at first I thought you meant the cymbal tapping was a response to seinfeldesque bass phrasing

I am not completely alone (but I don't really hate trap drums the way Fiol does, and I love timbales, which he sees as almost as bad as trap drums):

Let me preface my response by saying that one's likes and dislikes in music are quite similar to one's likes and dislikes when it comes to food. Some people can think of nothing better and more enjoyable than the taste and feel of eating a raw oyster, while others are horrified just at the thought of a fishy-tasting, phlem-like substance slithering down their throat. This is not to say that raw oysters are no good or that they are not a legitimate and valuable food source, it's simply a matter of taste. Having said this, let me say that I think one of the reasons why I got into Latin music in the first place, is because I detest the sound of trap drums or drum kit - especially when played by heavy-handed, tasteless percussionists who overplay. (The Brazilian trap drummers are the only ones who can make this obnoxious instrument sound appealing to me.) In fact, I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept, with the abrasive and irritating sound of the snare drum (a military drum that was designed to cut through gunfire) leading the charge, and the cymbals clinging and clanging away behind it at full tilt. I'd like to dance a guaguancó on his grave.

http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/archives/Interview58?Mogw6uXn;;12

lol

I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept

He can thank vaudeville.

this thread very informative

Far too many Robert Wyatt tracks are spoiled by this...

Don't think they are jazz tracks (from the little solo Wyatt I've heard anyway)...

hah just yesterday i bought End of an Ear for £3 quid in Fopp and was surprised (and pleased!) to find that its pretty much a free jazz alb (had never heard it before) - on one listen i didn't hear much 'constant' anything tho

What's awesome is people who walk around making "tsss-ts-ts-tsss-ts-ts" noises with their mouths!

You don't even have to like jazz to do that, I've found out.

iirc this thread is all-time

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

― n/a is just more of a character....in a genre polluted by clones (n/a), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:09 (1 year ago)

"Honey, do you hear that constant cymbal tapping? Can you go see what that is?"

What's awesome is people who walk around making "tsss-ts-ts-tsss-ts-ts" noises with their mouths!

I've caught myself doing this loads lately. I blame Jimmy Cobb.

lol at this thread. I assumed kate had started it

great revive

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/black-sabbath-jazz-swing-influence-bill-ward-948231/

“I remember quite vividly listening to Black Sabbath, and it was the self-titled record,” Gaster recalls. “I think in particular it was the first song on Side Two, ‘Wicked World.’ Bill Ward opens up that tune by playing jazz time on the hi-hat. He’s playing that figure that you hear so many of those big-band guys play: ‘spang-a-lang, spang-a-lang.’ And that drives the band. There’s no backbeat; there’s no bass drum there in particular. It’s really just the sound of those hi-hats that’s pushing the band along.

lots of meat in that article, good stuff

That seems like kind of an obvious observation about that tune though? And lots of drummers of the time and preceding Ward were incorporating jazz influence. Mitch Mitchell comes to mind as someone who did so way more than Ward.

lmao at this thread

xp I like the perspective the article gives on the early Sabbath sound ... it's not that what Ward was doing was so unusual or innovative in itself, it's just cool to see the jazz-influenced aspects spelled out in some detail

always glad to see this thread revived, truly an ILM classic

The really funny thing is that it's actually a pretty deep question, with a lot of history behind the answer

I like imagining that the thread title was created by someone who lived next door to a jazz practice space. "ARGH, WHAT'S WITH THAT CONSTANT CYMBAL TAPPING!"

When I hear people pine for the early days of ILM, I think of threads like this and laugh.

I don't know of anyone who pines for the ILM/ILX of 2001 or 2002 tbf.

i do

What's with every jazz record having to have at least one ballad on it? Most jazz ballads are complete snoozes, very few players do them in a way I want to hear.

I don't know of anyone who pines for the ILM/ILX of 2001 or 2002 tbf.

― High profile Tom D (Tom D.), mercredi 12 février 2020 17:46 (eleven months ago) bookmarkflaglink

i do

― j., mercredi 12 février 2020 21:35 (eleven months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Same. And Jordan was right, this was actually a good question and discussion working out how a genre convention came to be.

Man alive, do you specifically mean the inclusion of vocal ballads on otherwise mostly instrumental albums, which always strikes me as a bit of a funny phenomenon, or just slower ballad tracks more generally?

Funny, I've only recently come to love the ballad. Partly because of work from home chill ambient playlist vibes (sorry), and partly because of some gigs with a serious trumpet player last year that made me realize how truly difficult they are to play well.

Like, I'd always heard people say that, and I consciously knew that keeping a steady quarter note gets harder the slower the tempo is. But if you're playing in school, at a jam session, or with anyone under 60 years old, no one is really going to call you out if the tempo fluctuates a tiny bit. And on these gigs there were ballads in that old-school tempo range that's not funereal nor is it approaching medium swing. Think 66 bpm, tempos that people used to slow dance to. Literally, if the first three quarter notes were not as counted off, the rhythm section would be getting snaps and stomps and glares. It was the hardest part of the night and I dreaded it. Not that I'm great at it now, but I did learn some things about lightening up my approach and practicing those tempos.

Also I was listening to Steve Jordan on a podcast and was glad to hear him say that everyone skips the ballads on records when they're young, but now they're his favorite (he was talking about 'Basin St Blues' on Seven Steps to Heaven).

and what's the deal with those slow movements in classical symphonies, bunch of filler if you ask me

Jordan's post reminds me of someone on ILM commenting that Grant Green's "Idle Moments" (the title track) sounds like a competition for who can play slower

I'd always heard people say that, and I consciously knew that keeping a steady quarter note gets harder the slower the tempo is.

seriously true. Like, it also gets harder as you play faster and exceed the comfort zone, but it isn't as obvious as when your time slips when playing slower (especially live, because the audience generally is just going apeshit and doesn't really care as much as you, the drummer, do)

also I don't think anyone so far has mentioned that the swing rhythm is basically 1/2 (as in one hand) of the standard paradiddle rudiment?

I still often skip the ballads on a typical jazz record, though obviously I can listen to Coltrane or Bill Evans play ballads for three hours straight -- if anything I'm more likely to skip the up tempo tune on a Bill Evans record.

also I don't think anyone so far has mentioned that the swing rhythm is basically 1/2 (as in one hand) of the standard paradiddle rudiment?

― sarahell, Thursday, January 14, 2021 4:55 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

true, although only one-handed, normally you'd switch lead hands when you play paradiddles

idle moments is so great, i think the meaning of life might be in there somewhere

I think even the most incorrigible ballad hater should enjoy monk ballads (especially as played by him). in the robin kelley bio monk is constantly tripping up talented players who love to show off by doing things like unexpectedly calling fast tunes at ballad tempo and such

Monk ballads are some of the best music ever made!

it was tylerw btw:

title track on that is ridic, some sort of competition between the players on who could play the slowest. i think joe henderson wins, because he sounds totally chill and totally tense at the same time.

― tylerw, Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:30 PM (nine years ago)

xp man alive - L (R) L-L (R) L (R-R) (repeat) -- isn't this what I said? Isn't this the basic jazz ride pattern? the (R) being the other hand that would be played in a paradiddle but is omitted ?

this is such a funny thread. hi hats are like one of the most beautiful sounds ever in the hands of a skilled drummer.

still need to listen to so much more jazz but my favorite ballads ever are on "out to lunch!" just so haunting.

That reminds me of another story I heard from Bill Stewart on a podcast, about how impressed he was with Eddie Harris on a slow tune on the Hand Jive record. How most saxophonists play kind of floaty and rubato on ballads, but Eddie Harris played super clear actual note values for the whole tune, with perfect time.

I saw Bernard Purdie give a lecture/demonstration once, and he talked about how impossible it was to play with Ray Charles, specifically the glacial pace of what Purdie called Charles’ “death tempo.” (Think “I Believe To My Soul” at half the tempo of the recording.)