what are barack obama's flaws?

wait deej did I miss the point at which you said "if the nelson compromise is in place, I can't support this bill"? would be stoked if I had missed such a moment but would be shocked had there been one

― Herodcare for the Unborn (J0hn D.), Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:54 PM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sigh

sorry theres no smoking gun either way dude

youll have to trust me on this one

because what I was pretty certain you were saying a couple days back was "it's disappointing, but the bill still deserves support"

j0hn d. you should really check my NARAL rating

I saw you have the facebook widget in place for that, pretty dope I have to say

I have a few questions for the pro-punishment folks. Let me also say that I think Joe Lieberman is a huge cock who should be thrown off a cliff but

Do you really think that stripping him of his committee power is going to get him to be more in line? This sounds remarkably foolish to me. Personally, I think the guy would use it as a way to leverage even more power with the GOP if he didn't outright pull an Arlen Specter. If the general consensus is that Lieberman is spiting dems for not supporting him in CT... what the hell is this going to make him do? And sure his vote isn't reliable right now, but you can take 'unreliable' vs. 'never, ever, ever gonna happen'. It's a bad situation— seems like what everyone in this thread has been arguing about on various issues— but there are rarely good/great trades in politics, no?

Also, how does this set a precedent of Obama using force? For faux-Blue Dogs, what is Obama holding over their head? The threat of doing... something? But, what's that something? Is Obama just going to go around stripping everyone of their power if they break rank until it's just Chuck Schumer chairing every Senate committee? It doesn't seem like a very effective precedent.

And the last thing, as much as Lieberman has once again proved himself to be a dick politician of the highest order, do we really want a President setting the precedent of decimating party members who don't fall in line with him on big issues? If Obama were to smush Lieberman under his foot... would we not have to look back on this if no important Dem stood up to him on DOMA/Don't Ask, Don't Tell/rendition etc etc. I think "party discipline" is important in the abstract, but it's not good for the country as a whole to have one driving, powerful force governing. Fuck Joe Lieberman and all, but yeah.

Mostly, Obama's problem is that he let him have his committee powers back after he campaigned w/ McCain. Fucking him over now will, I think, exacerbate the problem, be ineffective as an enforcement tactic and set a potentially dangerous precedent going forward for when we are looking for Dems to oppose the party on a host of issues where they aren't up to snuff. If they wanna boot his ass, make sure he doesn't get re-elected. Evan Bayh, too.

And the last thing, as much as Lieberman has once again proved himself to be a dick politician of the highest order, do we really want a President setting the precedent of decimating party members who don't fall in line with him on big issues? If Obama were to smush Lieberman under his foot... would we not have to look back on this if no important Dem stood up to him on DOMA/Don't Ask, Don't Tell/rendition etc etc. I think "party discipline" is important in the abstract, but it's not good for the country as a whole to have one driving, powerful force governing. Fuck Joe Lieberman and all, but yeah.

Most people here have been clear in arguing that (a) Lieberman isn't inspired by politics at home or even contrarianism but sheer assholery; and (b) beyond the Beltway and the sneaky way in which Cokie and Sam have framed "support for healthcare reform," it's pretty popular, and, heartbreakingly, the "public option" was extraordinarily popular until last month. So don't kid yourself into thinking that Obama is going for Cheney-esque unitary executive nonsense here. Lieberman's position is based on pure cynicism.

and, heartbreakingly, the "public option" was extraordinarily popular until last month

Even after a months-long disinformation campaign, it's still pretty popular. According to that poll mentioned above, 58% support the public option (including 86% of democrats), 32% oppose, 10% not sure.

if the Obama presidency has demonstrated any axiom, it's that the GOP, the military-industrial complex, the public, and the Beltway punditocracy only buy the unitary executive when you flex your muscles overseas.

*unitary executive theory when he

i understand and respect where deej is coming from, but unfortunately i think that's also where a lot of dems in the Senate are coming from, too. it's neutral politics, fear of burning bridges, pragmatic gamesmanship, whatever. problem is that i think that outlook makes Senate dems look like they have no balls, and after this debacle that could lose them some elections. strip Lieberman after the bill passes, and let the voters think someone up there actually gives a shit about something. i don't want to see these dudes being chummy once they are off the field.

who are we trying to impress w/ our tremendous balls? i thought we were more concerned w/ legislative accomplishments

the stuff bar_non just said is a lot of what im trying to understand in this situation. even if u dont agree with me (or him/her) its hard for me to understand how some of that shit isnt even running through your minds

And the last thing, as much as Lieberman has once again proved himself to be a dick politician of the highest order, do we really want a President setting the precedent of decimating party members who don't fall in line with him on big issues? If Obama were to smush Lieberman under his foot... would we not have to look back on this if no important Dem stood up to him on DOMA/Don't Ask, Don't Tell/rendition etc etc. I think "party discipline" is important in the abstract, but it's not good for the country as a whole to have one driving, powerful force governing. Fuck Joe Lieberman and all, but yeah.

oh come on

how is having a democratic party playing by the same rulebook ----> MONOLITHIC GOVERNANCE/GROUPTHINK??

Right, I wasn't actually alluding to Bush/Cheney, just saying that there is a downside to extreme "party unity". He banishes Lieberman and no one takes further threats of punishment seriously or... people just stop opposing him on things they think are important? Idk.

Also, how does this set a precedent of Obama using force? For faux-Blue Dogs, what is Obama holding over their head? The threat of doing... something? But, what's that something? Is Obama just going to go around stripping everyone of their power if they break rank until it's just Chuck Schumer chairing every Senate committee? It doesn't seem like a very effective precedent.

And the last thing, as much as Lieberman has once again proved himself to be a dick politician of the highest order, do we really want a President setting the precedent of decimating party members who don't fall in line with him on big issues?

Kind of a false dichotomy here. Either Obama does nothing now, or he overdoses on 'roids and roundhouse kicks everyone in the face who looks at him twice, Chuck Norris-style, until it's just Obama and Schumer standing on a mountain of bloody corpses, afraid to make eye contact with each other?

Would Obama really be "decimating" Lieberman for not falling in lockstep with him, or would Lieberman be receiving something that was long overdue? I imagine that Lieberman was surprised as hell that he retained his chairmanship after campaigning for McCain. I can picture him cackling madly at his reflection in his haunted castle.

I'm being a bit of a smartass here, but I'm pretty sure there's some wiggle room between letting a conniving Connecticuter asshole sabotage an important of health care reform and controlling your party like marionettes.

My main prob with the proposed stoning of Lieberman is that it pretends there are "Democratic Party core values," and there ain't beyond the primacy of coddling corporate America.

btw you guys have turned this into just one more general hack political thread.

Is that why you're here

Do you really think that stripping him of his committee power is going to get him to be more in line?
yes. i also think that giving people speeding tickets makes them drive slower. whatever ego-stroking NOT punishing him is supposed to accomplish can be meted out behind closed doors by other means, via political jujitsu -- some mixture of threats and making him feel special. and it should have been done a ways back; he never should have felt the license to cockblock the public option with impunity the way he has. it is way too big of a deal. this playing nice is a flaw of obama's so far. maybe he's coaching some long game i can't fathom but i'm tired of giving him credit for that

i thought we were more concerned w/ legislative accomplishments

they're hardly accomplishments by the time all the concessions get made - as far as I'm concerned, the passage of a bill advanced by the party I support is only an accomplishment if I think the bill's good. not "has good things." I get the impression, could be wrong, that for you the passage of a bill backed by the party/admin is, of itself, a good thing. 100% not even close to on board w/that idea.

very long, pretty good post here including some why it's good to twist arms/why a bad bill kinda isn't better than no bill/other pertinent stuff

much as id like the see the fucker punished liebermans not going anywhere

hes a point man on climate change among other big democratic bills

plus no powerful senate dem is going to punish the guy for fear that someday the same stick is going to beat them

but connecticut, if yr listening, vote this piece of shit out of office asap

I see no good reason to think that Lieberman isn't just enabling what Obama really wanted, anyway. By the laws they sign ye shall know them.

i think obama & co. were feeling pretty good when liebermans big demand was removing the public option, since i dont think the administration cared very much--i think they, and senate dems in general, freaked out once lieberman went back on the compromise they had engineered. especially since on the merits the medicare buy-in was arguably more "progressive" than the public option.

I thought this: http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3694/we-have-met-corporation-and-it-us was a pretty good write up on why the ultimate dream of what progressives want doesn't seem to be workable in the US, right now.

btw its worth pointing out that besides the public option and the mandate this is more or less exactly the plan that obama campaigned on

hard to get to the meat of that article through the invective of the "if you disagree with me, you are a child without any sense of how things actually work"

btw its worth pointing out that besides the public option and the mandate this is more or less exactly the plan that obama campaigned on

btw it's worth pointing out that without my arms & eyes & my left leg I'm basically still the same J0hn D

hey j0hn good to see you again

mornin' max

would have loved to have stayed onthread yellin and hollerin last night but miraculously my plane left o'hare only 2 hours late

i wasnt on this thread

as much as i admire deej's perseverance i cant say im in the "leave joe lieberman alone" camp

stfu max joe's gonna vote with me on the "does J0hn D. get extra stuffing w/his xmas dinner" bill, if this bill gets stalled on the floor I'm comin after the guilty w/guns

Lieberman said that he might be able to give me a ride home after work next Tuesday, so ixnay on the ippingstray iebermanlay of his airmanshipchay until after that plz

fwiw i dont think deejs point is really all that silly--there should be some kind of tangible political benefit to sacking lieberman instead of just doing it as revenge, and the thought that he might be a strong voice on an issue like climate change would be enough to say fuck it lets keep him...

its just that i think the political benefits of kicking the guy out of the club (i.e. placating the left wing to some extent, making it clear to the blue dogs that they cant be bossy) probably outweigh whatever "help" he might give to the senate in the future.

and the fact is kicking him out could bite dems in the ass if the GOP continues to filibuster every. single. goddamn. thing. in the senate and JL is so mad about losing his pozish that he refuses to help out by voting for cloture

would have loved to have stayed onthread yellin and hollerin last night but miraculously my plane left o'hare only 2 hours late

― Herodcare for the Unborn (J0hn D.), Monday, December 21, 2009 9:48 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh man when were you there? what a zoo.

i took a little vacation this weekend so i've been out of it. apparently we got a health care deal? that seems pretty good. shame about ben nelson being a pro-lifer tho.

Personally, I certainly wasn't irritated at Deej's point that it shouldn't be about revenge, but about political benefits.

I was irritated that he kept ignoring the pool of people that were repeatedly explaining the political benefits to doing it while simultaneously expressing exasperation that no one would explain the political benefits!

isnt it weird that people would so vehemently disagree about the possible outcomes of a risky hypothetical situation

i really think the way to deal with JL would have been am mix of threats and bribery, in private, like way back last year right around the time they decided not to strip him/censure him etc. maybe they did, who knows.

oh man when were you there? what a zoo.

between 4-9. my mood stayed chipper though, there were so many people trying to make the best of the delays that there was kind of a positive vibe to it in a weird cool way.

isnt it weird that people would so vehemently disagree about the possible outcomes of a risky hypothetical situation

We're a practical sort.

would have loved to have stayed onthread yellin and hollerin last night but miraculously my plane left o'hare only 2 hours late

― Herodcare for the Unborn (J0hn D.), Monday, December 21, 2009 9:48 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol @ us arguing about a mile away from each other

lol I know right

meanwhile in Yemen...