Wynton Marsalis(sp)

Whatever, I've seen plenty of ridiculous claims by people that Ayler "couldn't play." These claims became even more dubious to me when they were stated by Bird fans, most of whom didn't know that Ayler was known as "Little Bird" when he was starting out in Cleveland.

As for Ronald Shannon Jackson and James Blood Ulmer, I'm not gonna defend them because I'm not a huge fan of their music, but to claim that they "couldn't play" is kind of silly.

Then again, are you the guy who claimed that all A.A.C.M. musicians just played "out-of-tune blues" or something like that?

As I recall, Albert Ayler started off in Little Walter's band? Is that right? Or something like that--I actually managed to sit in one time with Odeon Pope. (I was a twee tyke, so maybe it was more amusement than anything else for him.)

Ronald Shannon Jackson has chops, but can't play. I'm not going to go into the distinction, but it should be fairly self-evident. And egads, Ulmer has survived on some weird form of fan worship that I just don't get.

And re: AACM, you completely missed my point, my point had nothing to do with the worth or validation of their music, blue-based and otherwise, but what the critics have turned them into, whether through villification or blanket "The Wire"-esque adulation. My point was that, in terming them AVANT-GARDE, they skewed the meaning and also skewed the purpose of the term. I like WSQ, especially Oliver Lake, and I like Marty Ehrlich and Tim Berne, and all those cats just fine, but in terming them avant-garde, all of the sudden they're in the same category as fucking La Monte Young, or Caspar Brotzmann. And I think that that's awful, both to what the artists have to be identified as, and as an encouragement to shite players who see the veneer of respectability in blowing 'til your face turns blue and "playing out of tune blues."

As for your dislike of the term "avant-garde," I completely agree with you, actually. The term is meaningless and inaccurate, and just as cliche-ridden as "cutting edge" or "experimental." Personally, I think it should only be used when referring to a very narrow range of musicians/composers. Michael Nyman's Experimental Music has a pretty decent description of the difference between "avant-garde" and "experimental." People still keep using the same lazy terms, though.

the burns thing was either proof that marsalis doesn't even slightly understand jazz, or a *monumental* intellectual sell-out — and i don't mean the non-discush of the avant-garde either, which is actually kind of a red herring. The strand on Billie Holiday was moronic drivel.

And regarding Ulmer's not playing, that's actually just my take. It's an opinion--and I didn't want to trigger that anti-craft reaction of, "if he can play, it must suck." I meant "play" re: Wynton as he has chops and, coincidentally, has taste--in Ulmer's case, I meant, he has nothing to say and really isn't a great player. Those two issues should be taken separately.

If people avoid Marsalis' work because of his who he is as a person, that seems kind of funny, considering the number of pricks who've made great music. It's like, not being down with Archie Shepp is more reprehensible than punching Cicely Tyson.

I like Black Codes, anyway. And, uh, Crescent City Christmas Card. Whatever that makes me.

Part of why it's a big deal that he's dissed his elders (or at least, his predecessors) is, while yes there is some bad free jazz (just like any genre, there are some clunkers out there), giving people the impression that an ENTIRE GENRE of music isn't worth anything is just plain stupid.

As for Archie Shepp, I'd take him any day over Wynton. Not only can he play "out" and "in" (shit, some of his out records like Coral Rock are some of my favorite records ever, not just favorite jazz), but he also is a talented writer. In fact, he was first known as a playwright around NYC; I don't think he picked up a horn until later.

Yes - 3 of the early jazz ones (s/t, 'Think of One', 'Black Codes...'). All have their moments, but that's about as far as I'd go. He deseves credit for reawakening interest in Hummel and the Haydn concertos (but I've not heard his recordings of them).

there was a chops thread before: can anyone remember what/where and link to it?

XtaTic: even ppl w.tiny penises are entitled to opinions you know: leave us be w. our secret shames...

When I was really into harmolodics as a teen, I listened to a lot of Jackson, among others--the way beginner musicians can tend to fixate, and the more I listened to other music, the less beauty and thought I found in his--it became this anti-human amalgam of chops and swagger, drumming without love or beauty or anything--I dunno... I guess I just hoped it would have more to offer than itchy trigger fingers. In a way, the 80's brand of harmolodics just seemed like the boy's club fusion mess that got continued under a different name. Ulmer isn't like that, and occasionally he had some good stuff, but like some other Black Arc, Black Saint, Saint Arc, ArcArc, recording artists, (I forget which record labels are real now,) sometimes one wonders whether it's the pedigree or the content that got these albums released.

Have you heard Jimmy Giuffre? He's amazing and considered at the same time, quite interesting fellow. Also, as always, the venerable and sometimes confounding Anthony Braxton's stuff you might like as well. And Cecil Taylor is great. Did you know that he did a concert with Mary Lou Williams? Apparently they were trying to reconcile the trad path and the garde path, and Cecil basically out-louded Williams by pounding on the keyboard. Not the most graceful or agreeable way to settle a discussion.

And HStencil, I really think you should give Marsalis's Haydn and other classical albums a shot before condemning them. He did, after all, go to Julliard and put in some hard hours--you can sort of tell that he's not classical in his phrasing, but it's phenomenal. And his control is awesome. Putting classical in quotes, saying that you haven't heard them, don't want to, and then calling them out doesn't really put your argument in the best light. Ignorance isn't convincing justification at all.

Fact: David S. Ware was signed to Columbia on the recommendation of Branford, not Wynton, Marsalis. As much as I am loathe to defend poor Wynton, I don't think he had anything to do with the esteemed Mr. Ware being dropped.

I remember getting that box (since it was only thirty some bucks) at the same time as Dave Douglas's 'Soul on Soul' and one cd from each in the changer before falling half-asleep. When I woke up, I was very surprised to realize that what I thought had been a tune with Douglas doing his more 'out' stuff had been Wynton going for the trad New Orleans smear-type playing and vice versa. Kinda helped me eliminate some anti-Wynton prejudice.

I've seen Wynton a couple of times and I think he really "comes to life" live. I also think he's gotten more interesting as time has gone on, especially his neo-New Orleans stuff - whoever above said they had only heard a couple of early albums ought to check out some more recent ones (Wynton was VERY young on the first few).

I'm not really interested in the whole debate over what Wynton does for/to Jazz on the whole, though personally I consider him harmless at worst. And I think he's a fantastic trumpet player - beautiful sound.

Still, he's very hit-or-miss. When he goes through a bop tune or standard it sometimes feels like an exercise. But he's also capable of having a lot of fun with a song.

And pro-New Orleans = good, but he was doing this detached version of it up in Lincoln Center instead of connecting with the current scene at all.

And yet, that doesn't take anything away from how bad those guys (Wycliffe, Herlin Riley, Wessell Anderson) are.

http://www.donnasbarandgrill.com/Live/030303/index.html

He was amazing that night. It was my very first trip to New Orleans, and I'm playing snare drum (probably horribly, I haven't listened to this for years).

i've never listened to wynton before

i'm listening to black codes from the underground (shoulda been a public enemy album title)

but yeah

it's good

better than his rep would suggest

but...it totally fails to grab me in anyway whatsoever

it just kinda sits there

does anybody still listen to blood on the fields

i had a roommate in college who played it all the time because he was a prizewhore, but he did not actually have any independent interest in jazz

blood on the fields is good

Just finished Ted Gioia's "The History of Jazz" and wanted to note that it had more on Marsalis than on all non-US artists throughout history combined.

I really need to check on here before I start any more music books.

That's crazy. I think Gary Giddins once said Marsalis's impact inversely diminished as his ambitions grew bigger, and I kind of agree (though not commercially - I think Marsalis got more press and probably sold more records and more concert tickets when he released more ambitious work). A great player, but a frustrating artist where his great technical ability can be hampered by his flawed vision.

(though not commercially - I think Marsalis got more press and probably sold more records and more concert tickets when he released more ambitious work)

Curious about the timeline -- he was dropped by CBS in 2000 for flagging sales.

It's a weird and complex issue. He writes a fucking ton of material for the JALC Orchestra, and gets other members to write and arrange, too, but nobody else plays his compositions, like, ever — not one Wynton Marsalis tune has entered the common repertoire. And that's kinda too bad, because some of the albums the JALC Orchestra has put out in the last few years — Handful Of Keys, Jazz & Art, The Fifties — are pretty good. No, he's not breaking new ground, it's all basically Mingus-meets-Ellington with some extra New Orleans thrown in, but the tunes are decent, and the band can certainly play. I feel like in his quest to preserve jazz, he built himself a giant tomb and walled himself up inside it. If he came out more and engaged with the wider world, it would be better for his music and maybe for the music as a whole. But if/when you just want to hear him do his thing, he can be pretty good at it.

I do wonder if everything he’s done with founding JALC will be his greater legacy.

Speaking of which, I know that there was and is some bad blood about the experience of the ALJO, which started at JALC but then split off for reasons maybe you can read about elsewhere. Also I heard a story about someone else of some stature unrelated to the ALJO saying "The only Wynton I care about is Wynton Kelly."