The Replacements: Classic or Dud?

And as for Tom not needing rock n' roll, well, there's only so much to be done about that.

The 'Mats, I suppose, are somewhere between the Cheers theme song done right and Benetar's "Love is a Battlefield" done angry.

Crusing at two-in-the-morning for no reason other than to stay in range of a college radio station with a bread box transmitter -- a station you found while scanning manically for a dadrock station and the cold reassureance that .38 Special brings... or used to bring. Now you've found The 'Mats and between you and morning is nothing but a stretch of road.

I have also never, ever, ever, preferred a band to a jukebox in a bar ;).

I love "Let it Be". It's just the essence of rock and roll for me, as is early Kinks or Nuggets-era 60's punk, or The Who, as are the Only Ones, as are the Buzzcocks. As are Urge Overkill! It's just something you feel, and I don't believe what I'm feeling IS a whole lot of cliched images of Americana.

"Tim" is almost there, but I really don't care for the final albums - too polished. I reckon Westerberg knew it was all up, had said all he had to say.

So, classic, despite the later albums. They deserve it despite the rubbish later albums.

I like the fact that the once set fire to Robert Christgau's hair, though. I give that cheap media stunt an A-plus.

Incidentally, the Cheers theme song done right would simply be the Cheers theme song, and "Love is a Battlefield" done angry would be "Love is a Battlefield." Not as if I like 'em or anything (though it's possible that if I ever heard Larry Levan play it at the Paradise Garage, my opinion would be different), it's just that I think there's nothing you possibly do to those songs that would make their sniveling sentiments any more palatable.

the above four bands, when grouped, are unique in that i have a hard time summing up my feelings for them, explaining just why i love each, and i almost find it besides the point to try to *speak* about them, as the music says it all to me, and if it doesn't for you, then no reason anyone on this board will give will make you fall in love similarly.

if you don't enjoy the thump of "the immigrant song" or the glee of "bye bye, pride" or the ending of "tenterhooks" or the bridge of "can't hardly wait," then i've nothing to tell you, only that my world has been all the better for them.

How does one say "I'm Lonely" to an answering machine? Easy. I've done it *lots* of times.

Incidentally, I have a problem with the kinds of sentences about pop music that go "If you don't love X, then you beyond the pale in some way or another." It's a way to pre-empt criticism, and hence, it is bad.

Note that The Kinks lost their touck on the US charts once they stopped writing songs like 'You Really Got Me'

Mark, it IS a great idea for a thread. There are many great British bands who the USA never 'got'. What about The Jam?

I've always been kind of on the fence about the Replacements. There are a couple of nice moments in their early songs, but I have always suspected the fawning praise from the indie-boy critics had more to do with their beery self-mythology than the music.

Saying that people who don't like them "don't get it" sounds a little too uncomfortably close to the rantings of an 11 year old angry at some critic for dissing Justin Timberlake. And the 11 year old has more of an excuse.

I didn't mean that people who "don't get" the Replacements lose. I meant that people who don't get Mark's post lose. You, obviously, lose. Sorry. :)

When people go on and on about Husker Du, I understand, because Bob Mould and Co. were doing some very cool stuff within the framework of accessible, understandable rock music. The Replacements don't and could never compare to that.

I gave the replacements a try, I really did -- I knew people who raved about them so I tried to give them a chance to impress me.They didn't. I have listened to all of their material up through Pleased to Meet Me. It's not bad...but on other hand, there's just nothing particularly compelling about it to give it that spark that the best pop music has. I don't hate it - I just don't love it either, so I'm still a little baffled as to how you read the phrase "on the fence" as a stand-in for "dislike".

I never "admitted to" being turned off by the beery self-mythology. I was just casting about for an explanation of why certain people might be into them to such a fanatical extent. Maybe I should have included other reasons, to make the point more clear. You know, like maybe it wasn't the beery self-mythology people liked, it was the fact that Tommy Stinson looked like a hairier version of Rob Lowe if you were squinting in a smoky club (well, it was the eighties)? Or maybe airline pilots worldwide rallied round their cause for having the courage to diss stewardesses in "Waitress in the Sky"? Maybe that's what earned them all of that "parise". I don't honestly know.

If that means I've lost something, well...as the legendary Robbie Neville once sang, "C'est La Vie". :-)

Nicole: Pardon my errant assumption, but it sure sounded like you were giving the "beery self-mythology" as your reason for not liking them since you didn't give any other reasons.

The Replacements and Soul Asylum are both from the Twin Cities and have, at alternate times, been held up as examples of how vibrant and wonderful the Twin Cities music scene is. The Goo Goo Dolls are from Buffalo and therefore irrelevant to the conversation.

I said that The Replacements and Soul Asylum represent the worst of what the Twin Cities music scene had to offer, yet both bands seem to be liked a lot and I could never understand why.

Tim (after taking a moment to slam Husker Du) asked why I didn't bring up the Goo Goo Dolls.

I stated that the Goo Goo Dolls were from Buffalo and have nothing to do with my point, which is that the Replacements and Soul Asylum are two of the worst bands to come out of the Twin Cities.

Tim has a fit.

There are a ton of jokes begging to be made here, but in light of Tom's new stance regarding abusive posts, I will refrain. So, to Tim: Since you want to bring the Goo Goo Dolls into this so desperately, I can't say that they rank among my favorite bands, either, but at least their lead singer can sing. That will excuse many things in my book. (Also, congratulations on being the first person on these boards to attempt to take a shot at me for posting with a Harvard email address.)

Anyway, by your "relevance" thinking, what does Soul Asylum have to do with the Replacements? Do you think that has more or less musical relevance than what the Goo Goo Dolls have to do with the Replacements? If "your point" was that Soul Asylum is crap, why bring it up in a Replacements thread? Just because they're both from Minneapolis? Fine (however backwards as I see it), but allow me the same freedom to bring up a band that is far more relevant to the "conversation", and the Goo Goo Dolls seem more relevant to the Mats in a musical context than Soul Asylum. And we're still talking about the MUSIC, right?

And was I REALLY "slamming" Husker Du? Do I now need to recap what I said or can we all just scroll up a bit to re-read it? (I'm going to trust that we've learned to use them by now.) I didn't rip 'em a new a-hole or anything. I don't "slam" many bands and certainly not HD. But they have neither the highs nor the longevity of the Mats.

Now, you ask, "What does Soul Asylum have to do with the Replacements?" Perhaps if you had utilized your newly-mastered skill with scroll bars, you would have noticed that I initially wrote, "They, along with Soul Asylum, represent the nadir of the Twin Cities music scene and I, for one, could never fathom why people liked them so much." Once you've mastered reading comprehension, you'll see several pieces of information in that sentence:

- I think The Replacements are horrifically overrated.
- I think Soul Asylum is horrifically overrated.
- Both bands come from the Twin Cities.
- Both bands have received critical acclaim and have been held up as representations of Twin Cities music.
- I think that there are a lot of bands from the Twin Cities who are much better than both bands. I facetiously (oops, sorry: jokingly) said Limited Warranty, but that list also includes Husker Du/Sugar/Bob Mould, Walt Mink, The Blue Up?, Tool & Die, Savage Aural Hotbed, Prince and the NPG, The Time/Morris Day/Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, Psykosonik, Project X, Lies Incorporated, and Ex- Boyfriends of Pamela.

The only reason I brought up Soul Asylum was to illustrate a point about how people view the music scene in the Twin Cities. I was not equating Soul Asylum to The Replacements as far as their respective sounds are concerned. I never claimed to equate their respective sounds (beyond putting them in a general category called "Bad").

As far as "slamming" Husker Du is concerned: You just said that they had neither the highs nor the longevity of the Replacements. Considering how painfully mediocre the Replacements are, I don't see that as a very positive comment on Husker Du.

Finally, I'd like to point out that, unless there's been a major bio- engineering breakthrough while I wasn't looking, the Replacements aren't your mother and I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you're reacting so vehemently at my disdain. I'm further puzzled as to why you're obsessed with where I went to school, but I really can't do anything about other people's jealousy.

I eagerly await your nonsensical, ranting reply.

(On a different note, I actually think the Replacements should get classic status from their seminal proto-slacker attitude, which was fairly distinct at the time)

I think that their slacker attitude (as opposed to Pavement's) does not translate well outside the US. (For the reverse thread - I would suggest Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians: "The Man With the Lightbulb Head" reminds me of British comedies on PBS. They're funny, though I never feel like I'm laughing for the right reasons.) A 'beery self-mythology' would leave songs like "Androgynous" and "Little Mascara" unexplained.

I think that Paul Westerberg may have sounded 'bleaurghiriffic' (great word!!) intentionally, but I find this endearing, like the nasality of Jonathan Richman's voice.

I'll quote part of Dan Perry's answer to the tunes thread: "Certain tunes fit certain ways of singing. Certain ways of singing fit certain tunes. [...] Is it suited to the lyrics being sung? Is it suited to the voice singing it? Does the person have the vocal training to pull it off? Does the person have too much vocal training to pull it off?"

I think Paul Westerberg's way of singing fit his songs. On the other hand, listeners may have different tolerances for vocal imperfections based upon their own training.

I think the claim that the Replacements' 'conflicted conflictedness' makes their songs illegitimate is not the same as saying ska-punk is bad because it rips off other musical genres. Experience may be genuinely secondhand. I think it's a suburban thing.

So I would say CLASSIC, but not for reasons of technical virtuosity or being really innovative or anything like that.

I hope I haven't destroyed the fun of this thread.

Dan, if I knew where you were, I'd buy you a beer too cause you definitely need to lighten up a little.

etc., etc., etc.

That's one of few punk albums I like. It's just so dang good.

"Mature" Replacements just don't ring my bell. They're just songs, y'know? Not bad, not especially good. Just songs, and who needs more of those.

Isn't that it, though? This long discussion has mostly just varied by personal taste and that common problem of 'young man rock passion,' where dumbass young man can't see over his ego (to his mind, quite a large vein! --lmfao) to see that his view is not the only one in the world.

Good call! Now that you mention it it does seem reminiscent of "Don't tell a Soul" era Replacements, when they were patiently plugging away at MTV in the hopes of getting REM big.

Jimmy Fallon (wearing glasses): Cool, Tina.

Tina: That's right, it's... Jimmy! You don't wear glasses!

Jimmy: I-I don't?

Tina: No! What's going to happen next!

(Winonna Ryder runs out)

Winonna Ryder (VERY HOT): One of you is the father of my child!

(shocked looks as they all freeze for the camera. Winonna Ryder cracks up. Scene falls apart)

Yeah, in the right situation, "Anywhere Is Better Than Here" is a really great song to put on when you're massively pissed off.

Talent Show is a really good way to kick off a record

I feel that way about "Pleased To Meet Me", my introduction to the band and favorite even though "Let It Be" and "Tim" are clearly better records.

"Dead Man's Pop" completely redeems "Don't Tell A Soul" for me, removing the awful production and adding some much-needed oomph to many tracks.

I am in my 50s and stuff like "Unsatisfied", "Answering Machine" and many others still resonate, differently now than when I was 20 of course but still have tremendous power.

Talent Show is a really good way to kick off a record

I enjoy a few songs on each of their records. "Rock 'n' Roll Ghost" is their best Sister Lovers pastiche, but Game Theory have a half-a-dozen better songs in the same mode.

Which?

Mary Magdalene
Any Other Hand
Where You Going Northern
Regenisraen
Together Now, Very Minor
Initiations Week

...and more if I included the Loud Family. I first heard of the band from a review in Spin of Lolita Nation which said they had hooks that Bryan Adams and the Replacements would kill for, though I was probably more intrigued by the mention of Roxy Music.

Those Game Theory songs and "Rock & Roll Ghost" may have had the same inspiration -- Sister Lovers -- but Game Theory were stone anglophiles in ways the 'mats never were. So with "Ghost" Westerberg nails the stark mood/ambiance of Sister Lovers, but isn't trying for the same hooky melodic sweetness. Even though the 'mats worshipped Beatle-worshippers Big Star, I can't think of a single 'mats song off the top of my head that I could call "Beatle-esque." I can think of at least 10 Game Theory (and Big Star) songs that fit that description.

Good point, and of course Scott Miller valued aesthetic "tidiness" much more than Westerberg.

Good description.

Saw a picture of a high school friend with Scott Miller. Believe he was in a band with Miller’s wife. Maybe I should compare notes with when my friends and I met the ‘Mats at The Grotto in New Haven. Alex Chilton was a no-show.

otm re "tidiness." And Miller's voice was mellifluous -- I can't imagine Paul navigating, I dunno, "Penny Lane" or something, but I can easily hear Miller nailing it.

I can't think of a single 'mats song off the top of my head that I could call "Beatle-esque."

Mr. Whirly

D'oh!

“Waitress in the Sky” sounds like Lennon could’ve penned it.

Ha! re: "Mr. Whirly"

BUT...was it directly inspired by the Beatles? Or by Tomorrow (featuring Bob's fave guitarist, Steve Howe)?

Compare the intros:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6gqN9HSa7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TBwM6oz3Bg

This was posted elsewhere by Jason Jones at Rhino but apparently we shouldn't expect a Hootenanny box set due to lack of material. Bummer.

Unexpectedly, "The Twisted Art of Chris Mars"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmaw2DDeCQc

(Side note: Horseshoes and Hand Grenades is better than any Paul Westerberg album.)

Juxtapoz magazine did a lovely profile on Mars which focused solely on his incredible art at least 20 years ago. His pieces can sell for $25kUSD+, and I’m sure he’s made far more from them than he ever did in The Replacements

…

This ranking is pretty good imo but I'd move Hootenanny up from 6 to 4.

https://www.spin.com/2023/09/every-replacements-album-ranked/

I need to spend more time with Hootenanny. For some reason my brain classifies it as an EP and then I'm surprised when I see how many songs are on it. I only have it on vinyl and I got it after my big Replacements phase, so I haven't given it the attention it deserves.

There's a dude on the Hoffman Forums that works with Rhino on the new box sets, it might be Bob Mehr. But he was saying that there likely be some sort of a Hootenanny special release, it just won't be a big box set because he doesn't think there's enough stuff to justify that. But it sounds like an expanded release is in the cards.

There’s so many Mats threads I probably should have revived the one Bob Mehr recently showed up on.

Xpost Stink should be above DTAS

This ranking is pretty good imo but I'd move Hootenanny up from 6 to 4.

Same here. It's a really good album with some of their greatest tracks.

Clemenza's Real Life Top 10: I heard "Unsatisfied" in the car today, but just the slow build at the beginning (same part used so brilliantly in Adventureland--bumper music for a talk show on the Zoomer station here. Bizarre; this is a station for plus-50s, which makes sense in terms of timeline, but this is not a station meant for plus-50s who bought Replacements albums.

(missing end bracket there after Adventureland)

really dislike Adventureland for its revisionist history soundtrack. no disrespect to the YLT score.

We couldn't be farther apart there: love "Unsatisfied" and Husker Du especially.

LOOK ME IN THE EYE AND TELL ME

Bob Mehr's the best. His Mats book is one of the greatest music biogs I've ever read.

Yeah, I read it recently and it was great. It would have been really easy for the book to come across like a laundry list of fuck-ups, but it manages to avoid that.

Out of interest, does the book specifically talk about their major 1987 London show I attended where Paul was so fucked up he couldn't even stand, let alone sing or play? Or was that just par for the course at that time and not worth its own mention?

No, nothing specific about that show. There were more details about the prior euro tour because it was their first time overseas. The 87 shows were noted as being more of the same with rowdy London shows but low turnout outside of that.

Hootenany is my favorite but it might suffer from the bias of being the first Replacements record I bought

I have it as high as 3rd on some days. YMMV, but the thrash rockers add to the overall album for me, rather than, I dunno Red Red Wine or whatever.

November 15, 1987 @ Orpheum, Minneapolis. "Notes: during ‘Never Mind’ Paul falls off the stage. You can hear a thump in the recording. ‘Dude Looks Like A Lady’ (Aerosmith) is inserted during ‘Gary’s Got A Boner.’

I know it's been discussed here and elsewhere, but the reported relative lack of traction the Replacements had/have outside of America ... that's totally linked to the fact that the band's fucked up-ed-ness is fundamentally, even foundationally American, right? I can't think of a better metaphor for this country than a self-destructive, simultaneously effortlessly brilliant and accidentally brilliant band as apt to rip your heart out as fall off the stage, or offer galvanizing, generation-defining anthems alongside nods to late-era Aerosmith in the middle of a song about boners.

I think it's that particular mix of decadence and unpretentiousness, though even by that standard there's not really anyone else like them in America, either.

we're comin to your town
we're gonna fall right down
we're an American band