Let's talk about Derrick May

Really, do people say this? Cause I've never met anyone who claimed this (because all the Techno professors would rubish that argument). But you're right techno was just a part of acidhouse and up till 1993 you wouldn't find any division between house and techno (I always wonder who started to make that division and why it caught on). Anyway in that light May created one of the anthems of acid with 'Strings of Life' as did many other artists now long forgotten. A Guy Called Gerald's 'Voodoo Ray' basically presented the same model from a Brit-perspective.

Mmm, running with this idea, didn't the division between house and techno also create/warrant an Author theory in dance music? I can understand why May has been pushed as an Author, since he had a very personal, recognizable and hard-to-copy style. Those weird jumping beats and string-stabs are pretty rare. Maybe most producers/DJ's felt those rhythms weren't as functional as 4-to-the-floor. Anyway, it's just a myth/story, over the years there has been enough documentation to put the birth of acid/rave into perspective away from Detroit.

I guess it depends on where your tastes lie in dance music. You opinions are valid, and I was into that mills'y banging shit when I was younger. By I really think you are off base by saying something like Acid Tracks or Jungle Wonz aged better than Rhythim is Rhythim. As far as aging goes, have you tried to listen to the stuff that the UK answered back with stuff like Forgemasters, Nexus 21, Sweet Exorcist, LFO or Early Orbital, now there is electronic music that did not age.

I think what you really should say is that you do not like his disco influenced angle, and the fact that he was not coming across as banging music. Of the Belleville three, I think Saunderson was the least talented of the bunch. Granted, Kevin did essentially write the rulebook for what harder techno would eventually become in the mid- 90s. I do not think that May's music has aged poorly, it is really a matter of whether or not you care for a particular sound.

re Omar:

have you listened to 91 era hardcore lately? that is some rotten stuff. He was angry because it took the direction of european dance music down an entirely wrong part. Belgian hoover tracks and other picked up breaks tracks just ruined the whole scene. It was pure drug music, and it was the point when rave got ugly. There is not a whole lot of good to say about Dominator by Human Resource...

As for influence...For one thing listen to any Carl Craig records from before 92, it took carl years to get out from underneath his shadow. Check out John Beltran, Aril Brikha, Tony Drake, Detroit Escalator Company, or Sterac. His musical presense is absolutely felt in deep techno, but it is not a presense that is celebrated in UK drug culture magazines.

Kevin Saunderson played harder and I think dancefloor techno definitely picked up on that. Of the three kevin did probably pave the way for most of the bad techno that came out in 90's. Derrick on the other hand went in a completely different direction, he slowed down and started make deeper records. He figured out real quick that people don't buy those kind of records from black american artists that's what fake detroit UK IDM records circa 92 were for.) He got discouraged because the music he wanted to make was not selling and quit making records. It is a shame really, I would like to have seen where he would have taken it.

Tim:

Tim the entire history of 90's underground dance music would have changed. With out Derrick May, there would have been no Neil Rushton. Without Neil Rushton and his connections in the UK music industry the entire dance industry in Detroit would have fizzled. Good Life and Big Fun never would have become international hits, there never would have been a situation that drew the scene together like the 10 Records comp. Derrick was the point man for that whole project, he was the one that rounded up the tracks. There never would have been a Music Institute, yet another locus for the nacent Detroit scene.

more importantly, there never would have been a vigor in Detroit for the second and third waves of Detroit techno. There would have been Underground Resistance, no Jeff Mills, Rob Hood, Rolando or Mike Banks, not Octave One, Carl Craig, Hawtin, Dan Bell, Shake... Derrick May like it or not set up a rallying point for the rest of the city. The city became a rallying point for the rest of the world.

And Frankly, 808 state could not have done it. They would have made it into nice glossy english music and fucked the whole idea up. The entire breadth of Techno would be song oriented tracks that sound like SAW 1 by Aphex. It would have been this glossy and clean melodic song oriented music with nice production values. Techno is not Techno without the black musical influence. The whole DJ style is different and the tracks would have come out completely different because of that. 808 just didn't have the grit or soul to really pull it off.

It is like saying "pop music would have still been good without Brian Wilson and Pet Sounds, the Beatles were playing with weird production on Rubber Soul anyways..." Like it or not the way he did things changed the game. Yeah, things were moving in that direction, but his music and personality were what crystalized the whole situation. EBM does not count, because it lacks the cross-cultural synthesis that makes Techno in Detroit important.

As for Italio-Disco, it is incredibly relevant to a conversation about Italio-Disco. The difference is that people are not trying to deny Martin Circus or Alexander Robotnik their places in dance music history. Derrick May is exactly why that music is relevant, because it is a continous cycle. Dance music continually feeds off its own history. I would get just a vocal if their influence was being denied. You have to study and respect the history, because that is where the future comes from. You cannot disscuss those Italio-Disco without bringing up Moroder or earlier guys in the Harlem scene, and you cannot bring up May without Italio-Disco, and you cannot bring up IDM without out bringing up Detroit and so on...

you have to recognize the personalities that made big waves and changed the way things were done. That is how music evolves, through the work of individuals. You cannot give Derrick May credit for everything, but you certainly cannot say that his music was irrelavent because of xyz would have done something vaguely similiar a few years later.

as for why I love Derrick May(as mark originally asked...)

On a strictly musical front, I just love his music. I love the way he arranges his strings, The way he programs his sounds, his knack for a good bassline and his drum programming. I really dig how he can create a total atmosphere and make you forget about the technical aspect behind the music. Most dance music is just a series of Cubase piano roll's, effects processing, and a vague musical theme for me. Rhythim is Rhythim has the ability to completely suspend that aspect of music for me. There is very little music that I completely lose myself and find myself in a completely different world.

The best example I can give is when you are a 15 year old kid and you are listening to your absolute favorite record in world, and you completely love music in a pure and complete way as only a teenager really can. No business, no scene, no musician crap, just a pure innocent love for how great music is.

Derrick May can take me to the place that every good middle aged rock critic is so desperately serching for.

I am a little over tired so I apppolgise for the spelling and gramatical errors. I need a secretary to edit my rants before before I post...

---- have you listened to 91 era hardcore lately? that is some rotten stuff. He was angry because it took the direction of european dance music down an entirely wrong part. Belgian hoover tracks and other picked up breaks tracks just ruined the whole scene. It was pure drug music, and it was the point when rave got ugly. There is not a whole lot of good to say about Dominator by Human Resource... -----

yes I have and that was exactly the *right* path music took at that time, higher intensity and in retrospect some amazing tunes that hold up pretty good incl. 'Dominator'. But then again I *like* drugmusic ;). I know that from a strict Detroit view this is "not done", which is why a lot of people were and still are irritated with May's comments. He didn't own the music and I've read enough interviews with Detroit producers who effectively have said as much: if you don't like it, start making better tracks again.

But hey I don't go for this "either-that-or" thinking. I find it perfectly normal to love both Rhythm is Rhythm and Human Resource, Psyche and LFO. (don't forget that for some of us in Amsterdam May, Pullen and Craig are honourary citizens since they lived here for some time).

One last comment: U.R. would have come out of Detroit no matter what.

Michael: certainly I'm not denying Derrick May's talent - he made some great music. But he's certainly valorised (by himself and others) way way way above and beyond his equally talented peers. The idea that he's being denigrated more than the Italo-disco producers you mentioned is, frankly, preposterous - I didn't even know those guys names.

Also: Belgian techno/hardcore/ardkore etc = surely the most interesting lineage in dance music (spreading on into jungle and then uk garage). In comparison, the music that has remained true to the Detroit blueprint has trod over a relatively small plot of creative ground for the last fourteen years or so. Not to mention that most of the really interesting stuff happening in real techno for the last eight years ago has been the Maurizio/Studio One axis and everything that's flowed out of it - which is about as far from May as you can get and still be called techno.

Also I want to take massive issue with the following quote:

To really get those records you need to be in the situation that they were designed for. You need to be in a dark sweaty Detroit club in 1989 filled with people who are there to get down because they so desperately need an escape from the pressure of life as black people in the murder capitol of the industrial world.

I really don't know if there is anything more absurd in the entire galaxy of music writing than statements like these. The people who write these sorts of things are evidently trying to write off the opinions of anyone else who doesn't fit the description, for example nearly everybody, and I for one see no other answer than to write off the opinions of anything they might have to say as well. To summarize - piss off, Mike Taylor, you make me ill.

a) his beats are really really funky, and you can't say that about a lot of techno in my opinion--it's the hi-hat patterns, basically, the syncopation and the cross-cutting rhythms are outstanding
b) paradoxically, the restraint and austerity of his sound are what make it very emotional to me... not just obvious stuff like Strings of Life, but also things like the bleeps on R-Theme (and the way they build), the piano on Salsa Life set against the grating synth riff (his piano sound in general actually, its not straightforwardly anthemic like straight-up house, there's a certain hollow echo to it), the relentlessness of The Dance, etc... a long time ago i listened to his stuff constantly during a pretty painful period in my life, and it helped
c) he's a really really great DJ, one of the best i ever heard... too many techno DJs either bludgeon you over the head with kickdrums or bore you to tears with seamlessness... he mixes it up a lot, you can hear bits of other musics but they're woven into the overall sound, and he actually makes you want to dance (another thing i can't say of too many techno djs)... see that awesome Mayday mix, of course
d) ok, he should have done more stuff, probably protecting the mythos too much, but still--everything he did is very high quality

also, yes he does seem quite arrogant, but i may be more bored with hearing about his "purism"/that one quote about hardcore from eons ago than i am with just about anything in dance music... you'd think hardcore was like Dylan going electric or something (perhaps it was haha, but I think we're all tired of hearing about that too)

Actually - you beat me to a lot of points on this thread. The thing about May - it's the hi-hats. So invigorating, so simple, so bountiful. It was what this music needed.

Yeah, "Beyond the Dance" is a piece of work, isn't it? What glorious music; it takes real imagination to create something like that. What a joy to sit in your room and listen to something like that. Screw the clubs. "Strings of Life"? C'mon, are you kidding me? Impossible brilliance (I'm all about the hyperbole tonight - blame the wine). Hell, throw in Carl Craig too. I take the two of them to be the best of the Detroit breed. Atkins and Saunderson are great, but really can't touch those two.

The funny thing is there really are a lot of traces in what these guys did in some of that late 70's stuff like Manuel Gottsching. I know that type of statement makes someone like Mike Taylor want to go on a rampage, but it's there. Hell, Craig made specific reference to it so it's not like it's a big deal. But yeah, problematic as they are, I love Taylor's posts. It's the Michigander in me.

To address the point made about my being one of the most absurd writers; it is your opinion, and when you wear my shoes perhaps it might make a bit more sense.

Frankly Millar, have you ever been to Detroit? Have you ever wandered around downtown Detroit in the middle of the night? Hell, do you have any experience in the Detroit club scene?

I can answer yes to all three of these questions. I stand by my statement because I know people who actually were there. I know what they have to say about it, and I know how much it meant to them. You weren't there, you don't know. You are not from anywhere near this region and you do not know what it is like, because it is not nice like NYC, London, or San Fran.

When I say that you need to come down to Detroit to understand those tracks I mean it. It isn't something I read in a copy of Mojo, I know what those tracks sound like out there because I *personally* have listened to those songs in the areas where they were written. When you have a look around it will make a lot more sense to you. I don't know where you are from, but I would never claim to have the same kind of intimate understanding of your region's recordings as I do of the ones that came out of Detroit. I know from first-hand experience that they make more sense in that climate.

Also, What does not make sense about that statement? I was under the impression that it was a widely understood idea in dance music culture that the club environment was a communal experience. It isn't just the records, the dj or the system, it is the venue, the people, the times, everything. Those records made their dance floor debuts in the Music Institute or other local venues on 1/4" Reel-to-Reel tape. Those records were made to be played on the floor for the people who were there. You might not like it because it doesn't include you, but those are the facts jack. Those records were purpose made dj tools that were engineered for, and refined in that particular setting. Derrick May made records for the clubbers in Detroit in the late 80's, and those records set the stage for electronic music in the 90's.

This is something that is ridiculously obvious to me, if no one else. All dance music only really lives for the first time a record blows up, after that it dies in a way, it never really explodes like it did that first summer or that first year in came out because it gets covered with the dust of the cannon. I was 12 years old when the MI was going, so I way too young to be there. When I was finally old enough to be a part of the Detroit scene I paid my dues week in and week out for about 8 years. I have seen a lot of labels, dj's, producers, and micro genres come and go since 1995. If you were not there for a particular period of time, you can never really understand it like someone who was actually there. The records just don't sound the same because you do not have the associations that go along with that particular time. The records are just something that gets exported for cash, but the real experience of dance music is off the record. You are just receiving the mediated experience, the residue of club culture if you will.

Techno is a lifestyle; it is not a genre of music. I am not going to claim that I am a huge insider and that I was there when Ron Murphy cut the plates for Strings Of Life at National Sound, but I have had personal contact with more than a few of the people involved with it. Because I have been to the places where these records were made, dealt with the people that made them, and live in the region where it happened, I probably have a little more insight than most. I probably do understand those records a little bit better because of that.

I am not saying that because I think I am the top dog, it is just something that seems to be true to me. When I look at the Detroit records, vs. say Cologne minimal techno, I do not have the same understanding of it. It is foreign to me. It is external. I can enjoy them, I can understand them, but I cannot really know them in the same way that I understand a local record, especially a record from somebody I know or have seen around for years and years. That might be horrible and elitist, but I don't know what else to tell you.

I understand Derrick May’s music more than say someone like Lou Reed, because I have spoken with dm a handful of times, dealt with the people that work at his label, have all the local gossip, and live in the same region. I have never met Lou Reed, I have never been in NYC, and I have never had any business or personal dealings with anyone who is remotely close to him. If you had all three I would not flip out if you claimed to have a better understanding of the VU, it would strike me as common sense.

Maybe I am just nuts…

What was important was that he took all these threads that were out there and weaved them all together while imposing his personality on them. And that was something NEW! Trust me, I know where Derrick May got his ideas from, and I don't think he has ever denied being influenced by what came before him. For the record, I am completely aware that there was music before Detroit Techno.

Thanks for the love Ronan and Mr. D. Believe it or not, I am not nearly as militant about Detroit Techno as I was a couple years back. It is hard to get my blood up about too much of anything when it comes to music anymore. It is a shame in some ways, when I used to rant, right or wrong, I used to kick up one hell of a racket.

so i obviously know a lot of early detroit tracks from hearing them being played,but i don't know specifically which ones

i would like some way to get to know the landmarks of detroit techno (other than the really well known ones-the bells,strings of life,good life,a few others)
and i would like to hear more from derrick may (consciously) but i dunno if there's much point buying a compilation of tracks made to be mixed into other tracks...
i am trying to download the mayday mix,but no luck so far
can anyone recommend other mixes that might give me some more understanding of detroit techno?
(i know the liquid room,obv,and am fairly familiar with harder,loop based techno,but i don't know a huge amount about the detroit stuff,or not as much as i feel i should,anyway)

this is one of the silliest things i have ever read

mike's posts always amuse me because there's such a cliche about this post-reynoldsian detroit pietist stereotype which after a while you can end up believing is a total construct until you run into one

I will answer your posts tomorrow Steve and Robin. Perhaps my writing is not up to par, because people are completely missing what I am trying to get across.

I brought up Lou Reed for a reason, and when I explain myself I think things will be a bit clearer.

and remember jess, you Reynolds accolades have a special place in our hearts as well. There are more of us "pietist constructs" than you are probably aware of, we have been right all along ;)

Just got some sad news -- a big reason (and why I'm posting on this thread) is at the end:

this note from brad hales - his shop was in the forest arms building on the wayne state campus that burned today. please let your friends and fellow record store geeks know this info.

Friends,

I am sorry to report that Detroit's Forest Arms apartment building was lost early this morning to a massive fire. The building is toast. Our new location is in the basement of my apartment, at 5835 Third St., just south of Antoinette.

If anybody wishes to help out, how about sending a prayer out to the hundred or so people who lived there who are now homeless, and lost pets, and probably in a lot of cases, everything they owned to the blaze.

People's Records will continue on without even really ever stopping. Unfortunately, I have to just about start over. Everything there is under about 4 feet of water. Literally.

Also, if you have any photos of the old place, email peoplesrecordsdetr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧

I think we may be having a benefit at the Bohemian within the next week or so; details to follow.

So, if anybody wants to stop by the house on Third, Zac, Anibal and I are preparing the basement, and getting things ready for our newest incarnation.
That's today. I don't think anything can be done at the store right now; it's going to take a whole lot of sump pumps to eventually get all the water out of that basement. 5,000 gallons A MINUTE were being pumped in.

Phone calls don't really help right now; my voicemail is already full. Stop by the house on Third if you want to help.

best,
brad

p.s. I needed a vacation anyway.

p.p.s. Still paying CA$H for old records.

p.p.p.s. this is also the building where derrick may recorded "strings of life", "the dance", "nude photo" etc..... nuff respect....

Bizarre. I spent nearly five years down the street, and not to be a pain, but I think Brad is incorrect. I’ve heard from Derrick that he wrote most of those songs two blocks down at the Sheridan Court, which is now the neighborhood crack den. But it’s possible, like everything about Derrick that he made either story up.

I was under the impression he recorded his big tracks at the Atlas Building, but what do I know...

in any event, it's always sad when the D loses another grand old building, and good luck to the residents...

sad news. reminds me of this: http://flickr.com/photos/sweetjuniper/2050168942/

For ex-Detroit people: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22821077@N04/sets/72157603860521532/

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=1001082564&albumID=0&imageID=373897

^^ LOL

as someone who is nearly completely ignorant abt these genre and subgenres and doesnt really care abt musical importantness id like to take this opportunity to weigh in on derrik may v techno.

firstly he is so delightfully funky. so so much! this shit is way more that than most house. how did techno become the uptight brother?

also the way its constructed and the sounds. the analog sounds and programing they are v distinctive and wonderful.

this is great great music.

the mike taylor posts are a truly stunning synergy of insight and wrongheadedness. ingenious!

used to hear this a lot at oldskool hardcore nights as the warm up, the cowbell loop bongo percussion used to spin me out. Proper mechanical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WywgPyAN4M

heard Paul Damage play this Saunderson joint amongst a load of woody mcbride/midwest acid, pitched up. Big Kev knew the score. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l96W1LJTmg

Yes, this is why (to me) chicago house was more techno than first wave techno. The original techno almost.

iirc the early (post-Cybotron) Detroit stuff was just considered house until Atkins dubbed it otherwise as the scenes were starting to move in different directions.

“Your love” feels pretty italo to me as an example.

Definitely. A lot of 84-86 era stuff in general.

It blew my mind when I realized Raze is Vaughan Mason of "Bounce Rock Skate Roll" fame

I mean I love italo disco to death and I dig a good critical rehabilitation story as much as the next guy, but I don’t really buy the supposed huge italo influence on the detroit producers, even though it makes a great story, and some great retrospective DJ mixes. Much more a case of parallel development than sequential. EBM and electro/hip-hop, different story. But hey, what do I know, I never walked at night through Detroit in 1986.

Also, as I’m getting older, I get more and more annoyed with some of the grand mythmaking bullshit of my generation. This bizarrely common idea that detroit techno was somehow amazingly innovative and unique amidst everything that came before and after, and got usurped by terrible cookiecutter hardcore/rave (that same chestnut gets wheeled out for each subsequent style btw, from trance, uk garage, hardstyle, italo dance, hard house psytrance, dubstep you name it). But you go back and listen to a random selection of late 80s techno 12”s (or livesets) and you notice the same hihat patterns, sound banks and structures in just about every fucking song, such mind numbing uniformity, I’m more and more realising that each scene clearly has its own cookiecutter, only the chefs are so caught up in the moment that they delude themselves into thinking the cutter doesn’t exist in their kitchen. And I used to believe all that shit too when I was young.

Honestly I'm kind of a latecomer to techno period because when I was coming up that scene here was dominated by egghead Moby clones, so I never bought much into that specific mythos or veneration.

to be fair detroit techno guys are hardly the only mythmakers out there, it’s so ubiquitous you can practically make a bingo card for it, when you watch any music documentary.

Honestly I'm kind of a latecomer to techno period because when I was coming up that scene here was dominated by egghead Moby clones, so I never bought much into that specific mythos or veneration.
― Get Me Bodied (Extended Mix), Wednesday, 30 June 2021 01:16 (four minutes ago)

I mean I used to say there are techno strains of dubstep when it came on the pirates and people used to be like this guys chatting nonsense, but I think this is why I've always had a problem with the club as the prime experiential space. For me this music really unlocked its potential at peoples yard, huge spliff being passed around, a good sub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgdw3_rVrRY

Not to mention the inherent 'we are the clique' aspect of club doors. At first I thought it was amazing to be part of this select few and quickly I realised I don't actually have much in common with these people.

That Italo book I mentioned does that too btw - the author’s main message is that Italo Disco was unique and rich and varied, full of amazing artists, skilled producers, inspired by a rich musical history, wrote only the most marvelous, uniquely Italian melodies - clearly the best thing ever. While of course it’s crystal clear that the Italo house that displaced it in one fell swoop in 1988 was cheap, badly produced cookie cutter garbage by talentless hacks, just out for a buck.

And yet despite all that, it’s an immensely entertaining (and informative) read.

I prefer the cheesy piano stuff personally

one of my all-time faves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBttSU1yDP8

Yeah but talk to the heavily invested italo piano/dream house collectors, and ask their opinion on the “mediterranean progressive” sound that displaced it overnight in Italy circa 95/96, and you hear some familiar soundbites.

that one mix of “no ufos” totally sounds like “robot is systematic”

well for a few seconds anyway

xp I'm sure although I have no idea what that is

That Italo book I mentioned does that too btw - the author’s main message is that Italo Disco was unique and rich and varied, full of amazing artists, skilled producers, inspired by a rich musical history, wrote only the most marvelous, uniquely Italian melodies - clearly the best thing ever. While of course it’s crystal clear that the Italo house that displaced it in one fell swoop in 1988 was cheap, badly produced cookie cutter garbage by talentless hacks, just out for a buck.
And yet despite all that, it’s an immensely entertaining (and informative) read.

That's interesting because I think late 90s trance is the same. Those progressive records are much better produced than the brain bashing minimalism of techno, yet on the whole they do nothing for me. High production standards can mean too many novelty tricks for the sake of it. this just ends up sounding like aural wallpaper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfJQ4l5wbMk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGhsFamZE_I

this is my favourite italo though, much rawer, much more the way I wish the genre sounded. It's great pitched ut at +16 Claudio Simonetti (from Goblin) magic. Big Millsy favourite and you can see why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2T-0ucWAi8

not sure why this is all getting dumped on this thread

attributing a lot of weight to May’s opinions on music outside of his narrow sphere is buying into his importance and legacy in a way he’s really pushed for decades. after releasing a handful of essential tracks in the formative years of a genre he’s sold the legend ever since, with occasional dj spots and business connections filling in the blanks

mr pires makes some interesting points that’d probably be better served on a thread not about a probable serial harasser/rapist

Your love doesn’t just “feel” Italo. It’s built on Electras Feels Good. And any talk on Italo that cites it’s zenith as 85 is conflating totally different phases and scenes. The Italo that hugely influenced house and techno is primarily late 70s euro disco and the circa 82 electro Italo that was widely imported through New York and Chicago. There’s a fare amount of cheesiness in there but it’s very different than what Italo was in 85.

There's a certain 'cunning of reasoning' metanarrative to the fact that while May was bashing UK hardcore techno in the early 90s, by the late 00s detroit techno was being used as a stick with which to beat minimal - which, if anything, was on the other side of detroit techno from hardcore, and was being dismissed in nearly diametrically opposite terms (other than the US vs Europe dichotomy) as being too white, too posh, too clean.

Which goes to the point that mythmaking/gatekeeping tends to be infinitely flexible and ultimately devoid of real content once it's being used by one group as a stick to beat another.

I think there was a Theo Parrish interview circa 2008 that got talked about a lot here where he made some vague reference to not liking a lot of popular clubbing music and everyone who read it just assumed that they knew exactly what music he was referring to and why - a Rorschach test for dance music taste.

(or maybe it was Omar-S? I can't remember now)

'Detroit techno' of course describes a very broad swathe of music (even in terms of just the difference between May and Saunderson, say) which makes it even more readily able to be deployed to serve just about any rhetorical device one wishes.

it's also especially laughable when discussions of future-forward music get stuck debating what the realest shit was 30 years ago

That's interesting because I think late 90s trance is the same. Those progressive records are much better produced than the brain bashing minimalism of techno, yet on the whole they do nothing for me. High production standards can mean too many novelty tricks for the sake of it. this just ends up sounding like aural wallpaper.

any talk on Italo that cites it’s zenith as 85 is conflating totally different phases and scenes

xpost: that said, that Cass & Slide tune is indeed boring as fuck.

Nah, it does nothing for you because you were just too old when 90s trance came along and it wasn't your scene. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, that's just how this whole thing works. Virtually nobody appreciates the stuff that came right *after* their favourite era of music.

Actually no. I was into UK garage (well, 2step especially the overtly poppy shola ama end of it) at the time. Which did have some polished production values but this progressive stuff is panaramic in a way 2step wasn't. In a way I see that as it's strength. But it's not a strength I'm interested in. Complexity can be a curse. I was actually too young at the time to know about the earlier (mid 90s german trance.) Hardly what teenagers glued into the london pirates had access to. But to me trance should have always sounded like this. Amphetamine psychosis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQK32947YTA

I actually can't find much hard trance even from this 1993 era that is eerie and gothic like this. Nu beat for the raver generation.

There's tons of that, mostly German and Belgian though.

trance, like techno, is a very wide umbrella though, in terms of sonics, geography/scenes and eras. It's almost impossible to make useful generalized statements about it.

Discussions at this point on techno realness (with or without involving trance) are too poisoned by all the posturing, mythmaking and gatekeeping. The same tired cliches are getting wheeled out in 2021 as if they're brand new insights, just see any discogs forum. At some point you've read it all. This shit is 30+ years old, if you're invested in this music you know the score by now.

^^^^

Many of you sound very old, none of the young people making rave music talk like this, and disdain these discussions of purity and realness. Rightly so.

I am very old, but I agree, although there is definitely a trend of extremely hip up and coming techno and acid purists who spin the classics.

Lectric Workers

Thank you for mentioning this name, I know jack shit about Italo-Disco of any era but I love the singles I pulled up on YT.

though not limited to italo disco, check out I-F's Mixed Up at the Hague, a 2000-era mix that re-codified italodisco for a new generation.

^^ so good and so fun

Was going to also mention, a great thing about Chicago house (and its heavy Italo content) is that the blueprints of what went into it are all in mixes on YouTube from the mid 80s WBMX era

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekveVpJhYdI

pretty much how I view Mills' Wizard mixes and techno

Many of you sound very old, none of the young people making rave music talk like this

sorry, nobody under eighty. i’m getting old.