TS: The Iliad vs The Odyssey

TS: The verse chronicle of an entire human and divine culture's suicide-by-hubris vs. the verse chronicle of one man's return against all odds to his wife, his home, and himself.

OF COURSE the Odyssey is more readable/enjoyable. So what? That seems like the laziest possible measure of their comparitive value.

nothing ruins a good rant like an embarassing typo

Isn't there a theory that the two poems were composed by different people? Odysseus' character seems a bit different in each of them.

I just read the Aeneid. I've been meaning to read it for about 6 years (since I did my GCSEs), and never realised that it was such a great read..

Need to read these two now..

I believe the reasons for the lengthy lists of ships and people are that these stories were recited at great houses and courts, and the more mentions you worked in of the guests' supposed forebears and home towns and so on, the better you did on tips.

Lattimore:
Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished
since that time when first there stood in division of conflict
Atreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.

the fagles version seems a lot better to me, much more direct and memorable: you can imagine someone chanting it out loud, where the lattimore seems like a bunch of good phrases randomly slung together with awkward syntax ("hurled in their multitudes" is good, but "division of conflict" just sounds fussy and lame).

However: The Lattimore version is classic, and necessary. Lattimore does extraordinary work in faithfully recreating the homeric hexameter (dactylic, for those keeping score at home), and some of his less successful english phrases surface Hellenic ideals and cultural touchstones that the Fagles blurs. It reminds us that the Greeks, in addition to initiating Teh Western Tradition, were alien beings rather than simply buffer reflections of ourselves.

Fagles is certainly more modern. For better and for worse, so are his Achaeans.

THE Wrath of Peleus' Son, the direful Spring
Of all the Grecian Woes, O Goddess, sing!
That Wrath which hurl'd to Pluto's gloomy Reign
The Souls of mighty Chiefs untimely slain;
Whose Limbs unbury'd on the naked Shore
Devouring Dogs and hungry Vultures tore.
Since Great Achilles and Atrides strove,
Such was the Sov'reign Doom, and such the Will of Jove.

I know they were fashionable at the time, but those damn heroic couplets are crazymaking!

The names of the Roman Gods are the suck.

The names of the Roman Gods are the suck.

That, of course, is what I was saying, if that wasn't clear.

I try and read both each year ( have read both at some point being a classics bore) as a new year's resolution. Goes down well with red wine. But I get to about half way and end up looking up Ulysses 31 on you tube. Now that was an epic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4c1X5ene8

Is it not wonderful?

Also see "Odysseus, the greatest hero of them all," a narrated tale by Tony Robbinson. Shamefully neglected and impossible to track down. But fantastic TV.

I remember ROFLing over the end credits, because the French production company was called DIC Entertainment.

Classic shit though. 'Ol Uly had a gun that doubled as a laser sword. Beat that Obi-Wan.

Search on google for Odysseus the greatest hero of them all and you get "the moondial" which was pretty good too, but more so a few years later when the main actress was in another series getting down and dirty.

Anyway, I am sure that shows like Dogtanian, Mysterious Cities of Gold, Belle and Sebastian (the cartoon) and Willie Fogg have their own threads.

In a similar vein, hitler stole charlie chaplin's moustache and, I ask you, what good came of it? none

I am not sure that I understand that last post. Was it saying that Virgil stole the ideas off Homer for his epic poem (which he obviously did, to Venerate Augustus) or are you slagging off Ulysses 31?
All these folk had tashes.

I like the idea that the once powerful Olympian God are extant but no longer venerated. They hand out in pubs all day and at the bookies waiting for their dole and Hermes works for a motorbike messenger service and Aphrodite as an escort. Without worship they are nothing.

PS sorry, tired and on the beer.

That's an idea for a BBC3 sit-com there.

Hang out, they hang out in pubs.

i'm going in (the iliad), splashed out on the new Emily Wilson version.

Goddess, sing of the cataclysmic wrath
of great Achilles, son of Peleus,
which caused the Greeks immeasurable pain
and sent so many noble souls of heroes
to Hades, and made men the spoils of dogs,
a banquet for birds, and so the plan
of Zeus unfolded - starting with the conflict
between great Agamemnon, lord of men
and glorius Achilles.

have read several modern retellings of this (Pat Barker, Stephen Fry, Natalie Haynes etc) so i know pretty much all the details, but haven't read an actual translation before.

I love Logue's War Music, wish he had finished it. wonder what he would have done with the scene between Priam and Achilles.

This is worth reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/simone-weil-the-iliad

just to give the flavor of Logue's version (not a translation really)

Headlock. Body slam. Hands that do not reach back. Low dust.
Stormed by Chylabborak, driven in by Abassee
The light above his circle hatched with spears
Odysseus to Sheepgrove:

'Get lord Idomeneo from the ridge.'

Then prays:

'Brainchild Athena, Holy Girl,
As one you made
As calm and cool as water in a well.
I know that you have cares enough
Other than those of me and mine.
Yet, Daughter of God, without your help
We cannot last.'

Setting down her topaz saucer heaped with nectarine jelly
Emptying her blood-red mouth set in her ice-white face
Teenaged Athena jumped up and shrieked:
'Kill! Kill for me!
Better to die than to live without killing!'

Who says prayer does no good?

it's taken 3 days to get through the 70 pages of preamble. she talks a good talk, let's see if the translation's any good. (it is the most recent, took her 5 years, and people seem to like it. it was also 11x what i normally spend on ebooks)

done with the iliad. took longer than expected (and the layout meant that a page was often two pages long on the kobo)

it's an odd thing, something modern in its framing - it's a month towards the end of a 10 year war, misses all the reasons AND the resolutions (doesn't cover, for instance, the death of achilles or the wooden horse). there is a lot of tedious, gory fighting. book 2 is pretty much a list of ships.

it's a great story but some of the modern retellings are more enjoyable (and there are many)

It is very gory, thats one of the things that stuck with me. How many ways can someone poetically describe a spear going through a person's body?