quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

i loved how it turned out their marriage was never even the silver mylar balloon, it was "hiding" in the basement

how could you MARRY someone who wrote the phrase "exquisitely sexual and vulnerable girl-woman"?

that article made me against gay marriage, and also straight marriage, and against humanity

I was actually willing to suspend all snarkiness for the sake of a hilariously overamped article suggesting that even a ludicrously picture-perfect marriage takes work

i guess, but that seems like such an obvious point, and i'm sure in any case it could be made by less annoying people. i have read some good things over the years about the unique pressures on the modern western marriage to provide not only stability and security but also self-fulfillment and transcendence, and how can anything ever live up to that, etc., i think it's a fine topic for discussion. but it doesn't have to be done in such a self-involved and off-puttingly self-aggrandizing way.

that article made me against gay marriage, and also straight marriage, and against humanity

^^^

x infinity

i read the whole thing and yes, it was horrible

I salute anyone who makes it past page 2.

I read the whole thing and somehow it didn't make me hate everyone in it. Maybe my sensors just weren't on yesterday.

the unique pressures on the modern western marriage to provide not only stability and security but also self-fulfillment and transcendence, and how can anything ever live up to that, etc.

I want to read more about this, actually.

I know the marriage industry is as busy as it ever was, and as a result couples confuse the formality with lifelong commitment, but, really, does anyone look for "transcendence" in marriage? They can just eat hash brownies if they're looking for that.

jokes aside this is about as good an article as i think you can hope from this kind of personal-essay crap

I want to read more about this, actually.

wait for my memoir!

Alfred, I'm pretty sure there are smart, well-meaning people who think they're going to get all of that out of their married relationship. I don't really understand, that's not my world, but I think I would eventually have trouble with the same thing.

i know what yr saying alfred and otm obv., but isn't "if this relationship is good, why aren't i happier?" sort of a recurring theme in the culture? i think there's a natural tendency to locate the source of personal dissatisfaction in whoever happens to be closest. and sometimes it's true -- if you're in a bad relationship, it'll make you unhappy. otoh sometimes the problem is just that nobody's ever happy or satisfied all the time and over time it's easy to start associating that with the person you spend most time with. which is maybe not the same as consciously expecting transcendence from a relationship, but it's an subconscious form of it.

a subconscious form of it.

and yeah, that is my own divorce experience talking there. i expect my ex- would have a different take on things. anyway, it all definitely shaped how i thought about what i wanted from a relationship, when i got married again.

ehhh so i read the whole thing, its really not that bad, i dont think

i mean especially compared to barfworthy ayelet waldman shit

that being said its probably way more interesting to marrieds and ppl in long term relayshs

i like the idea of always "improving" a relationship, it's good advice--but one of her main gripes was that the guy cooked too much, and cooked stuff that was too elaborate. i can understand that, but it seems like small potatoes compared to other problems you can have in a relationship. but of course, every relationship is different and maybe it just really bugged her.

that's my problem with the whole set-up to the piece, it's almost like she's inventing things that need to be worked on in order to have something to drive her narrative. like, "this would be easier to sell if we were having some kind of actual crisis, but in the absence of that let's play up our little irritations with each other as much as possible. if we're lucky, maybe an acual crisis will happen before the manuscript is due."

Exactly, and, as a result, now they've uncovered minor problems or created them wholesale. In six years the magazine will publish the sequel, in which he'll admit to cooking elaborate meals for his male lover.

xxxp Well, if being busy "cooking" increasingly elaborate things is a shield against having to join your family doing things you prefer to avoid or aren't comfortable with, then yeah, I can see that being annoying to the other partner who's doing all the necessary work.

We could eat pretty well if you just made a casserole and a salad, and then I'd have some help over here. So get off it.

cooking is work though

Well, if being busy "cooking" increasingly elaborate things is a shield against having to join your family doing things you prefer to avoid or aren't comfortable with, then yeah, I can see that being annoying to the other partner who's doing all the necessary work.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 8, 2009 10:04 AM Bookmark

This is OTM -- if anything I was surprised she wasn't more bothered by it.

it's one thing to be bothered by your spouse's elaborate cooking as an avoidance technique to doing the other "work" of the marriage (i.e. taking care of the kids) but again, it just seems like she's looking for something to complain about. cooking (and cleaning up and shopping) is a lot of work.

i can see her saying something to the dude about hog's heads and stuff in the kitchen versus playing with the kids (but it sounded like he cooked with the kids, too) and maybe if he's unresponsive over a long period of time talk to a professional about it?

you mean like a paramedic?

xpost - cooking is the kind of work you choose and leave less pleasant work for others. i do most of the cooking in my house and feel like i'm getting away with something, because my roommate does most of the general cleaning. it's kind of willfully blind to pretend that shopping, cooking, and cleanup is equivalent to all other household labor - they're both work, but one of them's mostly fun work, the other's just NOT.

also, if you can't save for retirement because of your specialty food budget that's messed up. i can save for retirement and i spend $40 a week on groceries!

long period of time=a year, backed up with lots of evidence that he doesn't give a rip about the kids. otherwise, i think lots of people would be happy to be married to a spouse who cooked as much as this guy does

you mean like a paramedic?

;)

it's kind of willfully blind to pretend that shopping, cooking, and cleanup is equivalent to all other household labor - they're both work, but one of them's mostly fun work, the other's just NOT.

c'mon this is highly subjective. some people see cooking as work and they hate it! I like it okay, but my wife likes it more. so she usually cooks. I love to vacuum and do the dishes (she hates these things, so i do them) but i hate making beds (but so does she, but we compromise on this).

Also I mean not saving any money because the lower-priced, ordinary local organic milk just isn't good enough for you and you need to eat hogs' heads all the time or something. The guy just sounds like a total fuckwad in general - everything that comes out of his mouth makes me want to hit him, but I guess the fact that she chose that guy says plenty about her.

i mean especially compared to barfworthy ayelet waldman shit

I guess these kind of personal/confessional essays are very unappealing to me in general, but Ayelet Waldman is worst of the worst.

xpost - i know it's subjective, that's why i get away with cooking instead of cleaning...but my point is that people who do tons of cooking usually enjoy it (if nobody does, you eat simple or prepared foods), and people who clean the bathroom a lot usually just do it because it has to be done (unless you can hire a cleaner or something). it's great that you love to vacuum and do the dishes but i think loving those things, as opposed to tolerating them, is pretty rare!

yeah, not saving for retirement because of the kids' college fund is understandable, noble even, but choosing fancy groceries over that is a choice i don't really get. at least they seem to be on the same page though, how infuriating would it be if your spouse blew your budget on hogs' heads every month?

fyi pigs heads are crazy cheap guys

haha i don't know, my roommates are vegetarians and jews

although i learned this week that chicken and cream are not kosher but beef and eggs together are, so meatballs are acceptable for non-veg jews!

Yes! Eggs are not dairy!

How chickens themselves are "beef, not to be mixed with the mother's milk" is beyond me completely. If they really followed protocol, you wouldn't be able to mix any chicken product ever with any egg or egg-related product ever. And probably anything that was waved vaguely in the general direction of an egg. Ever.

The chicken thing goes back to some old European rabbinic ruling - Jews were supposed to eat meat on Fridays but they were too poor for meat, so the rabbis ruled that you could have chicken instead if you treated it like meat.

Why it persists is beyond me.

I think my wife read this article. I skipped to the end for a lol at the menu of ways to thrust a dong.

If it was a prank, that would be great - read all 4000 words of this godawful self-absorbed wealthy white relationship horseshit that's been said a million times before, and better, and get to the end and it's SPAM!!! BECOME MASTER OF NIGHT ACTIVITIES, PLEASEURS OF A GIRTHY PORK SWORD CAN BE YOURS

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/12/06/magazine/06marriage-3/popup.jpg

that was my favorite part of the article. that illustration...

household chores are a matter of incentive and comparitive advantage yo

I clean bathrooms because I'm better at it + I v. much prefer that it be done by the person who is better at it; She cleans floors and does the laundry because she's obsessive about clean floors and empty laundry baskets; I water plants and put up the dishes because I'm tall; etc.

everybody should read tim harford

I think I would be in trouble if I started waving david ricardo around wrt chores.

that was my favorite part of the article. that illustration...

Is she carrying an bodiless arm? Is it for the hogshead stew?

its a dong

no i think its the bedroom shot thats best. it looks like someones guest room

but i hate making beds (but so does she, but we compromise on this)

I <3 what u did here, suggesting that not bothering to make the bed ever is a "compromise."

I read the article and mostly was impressed that the dude wrapped his head in a pillowcase so wifey could continue reading with the light on (HINT HINT ok just kidding).

Mostly I thought it was a snoozer, though I found her analogy to the "good-enough" motherhood theory refreshing.

i assumed that's what he meant by compromise :)
making the bed is dumb, you're just gonna mess it up the next day