Elliott Smith is dead.

oh now that's classic

I am very angry at Elliott Smith today.

xpost: Dadaismus, ES had received v. expensive tx for alcoholism, and everybody said/assumed that there was always an opiate component to his self-medicating.

oh now that's classic

[Actually I would quite like that if it was read out on the news Kent Brockman style, especially if he then pondered whether it was time for citizens to crowbar open each other's heads and feast on the goo inside]

I agree, but I'm not sure what the answer is. Imagine if everyone receiving an SSRI now were in psychotherapy. We would need to quadruple the number of therapists.

+++The confusing thing for me was that the Under the Radar article gave me the impression he was doing a lot better.
agreed! he had his new studio, plans to donate all new tour money to the abused kids foundation, 10 hour interview...

Fair enough. Actually I do remember hearing that he was hospitalized against his will sometime pre-XO, and was very unhappy about it. But I'm wondering WHY sick people sometimes refuse to get help. If we didn't stigmatize depression and addiction, perhaps it would be easier to accept help when it's available and offered? I'm not interested in "blaming" society or anyone else. I share John's anger at Elliott, but it seems like the best way for the music community to deal with this terrible loss would be to think about how we can keep it from happening again.

Imagine if everyone receiving an SSRI now were in psychotherapy. We would need to quadruple the number of therapists.

Actually the nice thing about therapy is that when it runs its course, you theoretically don't need it anymore. With SSRIs you have to keep taking them or you feel shitty again. That's why the prescription drug companies love them. SSRIs can definitely be helpful but they work best when used in conjunction with regular counseling. These days they're often handed out by general practitioners. If we had a TV commercial for the Society of Counseling Psychologists for every Prozac or Paxil commercial, I think a lot of people would be healthier.

"Theoretically" is the key word there. I'm an advocate for therapy over drugs any day, but the field of psychology could use some tough love. As a science, it doesn't hold up particularly well. The success rate of psychotherapy is low compared to physical medicine. At this point, unfortunately, drugs hold up better under scientific scrutiny.

"You can check out any time you like, but you may never leave".

Just my opinion. I do think this attitude has a big impact on the whole issue. It's easy to blame the victim but you never really know what state of mind someone is in with whatever disorder or problem they are dealing with. They might be capable of understanding it, but they might be in too deep to see the light. I never attempted suicide but there were times when I lost so much hope I literally didn't know what to do with myself anymore, and looking back with hindsight I don't think I was actually capable of seeing clearly at the time.

this is awful.

rip.

(also not everyone on meds or in therapy is neccessarily suffering from a chronic mental illness. These are common treatments for many different troubles in life.)

And again, plenty of people try to get help and don't perservere, because another counterintuitive aspect rarely mentioned is - it's very tough to start feeling better even if that's the goal, 'cause there is always the ease with which one can fall back into familiar depressive patterns. Getting well is hard if you're not used to being well, basically!

I consider myself lucky to have never been addicted to anything as it seems that addiction + depression is a doubly hard thing to get free of. I am sorry Elliott Smith quit fighting it.. and that they left knives around.. reminded me of telling a friend lately, dude, if you really feel like crashing yr car into a tree, hide your keys and don't get behind the wheel that day!

I ask, 'cos this is a pretty thoughtful (and lengthy) discussion. Perhaps airing these views has been therapeutic for ILMers themselves?

My experience is that mental illness is somewhat stigmatised (and that generation and, yes, geography can be influencing factors in this regard), but there are degrees of illness. I wouldn't hold someone who was severely psychotic accountable, but a mild clinical depression? I was diagnosed with PTSD and depression, and it was very difficult -- but with meds (initially -- try to get off of those suckers as early as possible unless you want your brain to feel like taffy) and simultaneous counseling, it's possible to beat it. But, then, subsequent vigilance has to be lifelong, and it can be exhausting.

I'm mad at Elliott Smith, I empathize with Elliott Smith, I feel sorry for Elliott Smith. All now pointless, because he's dead and doesn't care any more. It's complicated. I guess what I'm saying is: judging people is pointless... and yet, what else are we supposed to do?

daria OTM about how easy it is to revert to familiar patterns.

It does hit home for me because I've dealt with depression in varying degrees since childhood, and though I'd say my situation has improved a lot, it's something that's always there. And sometimes it's hard to stay completely in control, you have to be constantly aware of the patterns you're indulging in without realizing. (not to be exhibitionist, but none of you know who I am and vice versa, and I'm not necessarily ashamed that I've been in therapy before.)

Therapy is nothing to be ashamed of; more people should be willing to attempt it. Unfortunately, it still carries a stigma that scares people out of getting help. For instance, one of the better things I'm decent at is helping mates (even the odd stranger) by giving them a listening ear.

Sometimes, all you will want is to be heard. Who knows whether Smith had that?

(1) if Smith's surrounding circumstances had been different -- he had someone to talk to, he didn't feel stigmatized for depression, he took medicine, he was in therapy, he had healthcare, people had different attitudes about artists -- then he might be alive today; or

(2) he was so miserable, was in such a terrible amount of emotional pain, and was so bent on killing himself (he tried before, right?) that there was no way to stop him.

I don't know Elliot Smith so I will never know which is true.

Oh fuck off with this Nick Drake BULLSHIT

Somewhere back, someone (possibly Kenan) called ES's manner of suicide "punk rock" — that being because it was believed then that he stabbed himself in his stomach. So what is it then, now that it seems that he stabbed himself in his heart? MOR orchestral ballad-esque?

So you're not one of the "sensitive people," I take it?

He's still alive and posting on ILM, isn't he?

You were supposed to save pop music. Remember that LA Weekly cover? Your face on the front, looking scared and beautiful, and I am sorry, so so so very sorry that you are gone. What happened? I guess it doesn't matter now and nothing does really. I just feel sorry and bad that we couldn't do anything to help. That all the people that loved you really didn't make much of a difference. That our love wasn't enough, or didn't reach you, or put you off, that you were unhappy anyway. But maybe your unhappiness was what we loved about you, so that our love was a constant reminder of how much unhappiness you had. I understand. We were selfish then, and for that I am angry for you. Mad for you. Sad for you. Loving you from here on the earth where things aren't so great, not at all, but fuck you made things a lot better and now that you are not here we just all have to act like life goes on and there goes another rock star and its better to burn out instead of fade away and whatever the fuck - whatever the fuck. All I can say is that I am crying as I write this, as I listen to your secretly sorry voice on Either/Or and I am wondering if you are hovering in the air above your house, watching the grief stricken fans and old friends walking wounded trying to understand where you went, why you went. If they can reach you now, with their thoughts, their hearts, their love. Can you see them? Does it make anything better? A whole shitload of hipsters are crying right now, hiding behind their ironic 70s sunglasses and vintage western snap front shirts. Legions of girls with scars from cutting themselves and dyed black hair are lighting candles and contemplating joining you today. Thirtysomething dudes with dirty shag haircuts are shaking their heads, looking down at their big jokey belt buckles, thinking about having a beer before the sun goes down, because it isn't a good day for any of us, because you aren't here to represent.

One time I was in Portland on tour, an early morning before I was about to leave for home and I walked into a bagel shop. You were there, not in person, but your record was playing. The sleepy, baby cute hippie kid behind the counter was singing along to you, quiet just like you, and he knew every word. There was another raggedy girl cleaning up tables behind me, and she was singing too. Then this other kid came into the shop, and waited in line, and he was singing - as if on cue, a little off key, but almost in harmony. Pretty soon, so was I. But we were all in our own private worlds, our voices barely audible, singing only for ourselves. Were you singing for yourself? I hope so. I hope that you could love your music like it was loved by everyone else.

Goodbye gentle soul. Goodnight. How sorry I am to see you go. But you were maybe too beautiful for this world. So beautiful that it hurt to be in it. I hope that you are not hurting anymore. I hope everything is good wherever you are. I hope that you are happy. Everything reminds me of you.

Most addicts also suffer from other chemical imbalances that usually manifest as depression, often in its bi-polar form. Not having known the guy, and only going by interviews, I’d guess bi-polar.

Which means he’d have needed a mood stabilizer—depakote, lithium or something similar.

If depakote, he could suffer a serious relapse just by missing a day’s dose. If lithium, he’d have to have his blood serum levels checked every three or so weeks, with dosage possibly re-adjusted.

On top of that, he’d need an anti-depressant, SSRI or some sort of atypical. In either case, the side-effect profile has a tendency to morph, causing further dosage readjustments and possibly the addition of another medication. All of which need to be taken at specific times of the day for maximum effect, while it’s essential that a psychopharmacologist is visited on a weekly basis to keep all the aforementioned in line.

Obviously, getting better is a pretty demanding enterprise. Often, those in ones’ social circle are invested, if only by sadly fucked up default, in the person remaining ill. Whether Dreamland did anything healthcare wise for him is something about which I won’t conjecture. Okay, I will. He was a guy who made whatever money he made from being a wreck.

A really awful possible ‘upside’: he may have felt a terrible relief upon wounding himself, as anything is preferable to the depressive downswing a bi-polar suffers.

I’m amazed he lasted this long.