the USA, Israel, and national interest

The centrality of the Middle East for many "religious conservatives" is due to several factors: some religious conservatives see war against Muslims as a religious battle in defense of Christianity, some see it as necessary to secure the existence of a "Greater Israel" which many Christians believe is a prerequisite for the return of Jesus, while still others see bellicosity as a test of loyalty to the Cause or even as proof of one's belief in the exceptionalism of the tribe, whether the Tribe is "America," "Christianity," or "conservatism."

Walt was on Terry Gross just now. He was pretty reasonable and nuanced, much moreso, even, than he was in his own article in the LRB, which makes me wonder if he's either learned to be moreso, or if Mearsheimer is harsher.

They followed with Abe Foxman, but I had to turn it off because I couldn't stand listening to the man hyperventilate. He distorted everything Walt said, but I think he really believes his own distortions. I still came away thinking Walt overemphasizes the role of the Israel lobby and the impact of our support for Israel, but Walt maybe brought me a bit closer to his viewpoint.

Looks like it's archived:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14154082&ft=1&f=13

Here's the Foxman part:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14154089

"There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East - the Israeli defense ministry and its 'amen corner' in the United States." Pat Buchanan - September 15, 1990

pat buchanan is such a monumental jackass

sorry, i mean "patrick j. buchanan" lol

still lolz @ "amen corner"

a year after making that quote buchanan, when running for president, visited a confederate cemetery but wouldn't cross the street to visit the black cemetery

oh he's a total asshole no argument there

Pat Buchanan is one guy who actually gets fairly labeled an anti-semite

This shit never gets old, huh?

http://firedoglake.com/2008/12/27/israeli-attack-on-gaza-bombs-fall-as-children-go-to-school/

Medics said civilians had been hit, but the majority of the victims appeared to be members of Hamas, branded a terror group by Israel and the West.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Israeli_air_strikes_kill_over_200_1227.html

a friend of mine just got back from israel. she spent a week consulting for a secondary school that's expanding their curriculum and building a new site. apparently it's close enough to gaza that rockets fall on the school all the time. apparently the kids don't like to be outside at all, even though they have beautiful landscaped park space all around the school.

well, anyway, nice to see both sides here stooping to each other's level.

tsk, tsk Israel. attacking Hamas after Hamas declares the cease fire is over and drops rockets on your cities. fuck you. show some restraint.

it's true; restraint never accomplishes anything.

who cares whether it does or not? this shouldn't even be a conversation. palestinian leadership is fucking retarded at the moment. why didn't they work the cease fire and try to parlay that into a better solution? why the fuck do they move to rocket shooting every fucking month?

are the palestinians a bunch of children who aren't responsible for their actions?

jews did 9/11

peace

in fact, as i was looking at my colleagues pictures of the bomb shelters at the school, i was thinking that they should probably just build a missile base instead of a new school.

well anyway this new round of bombing will probably show the palestinians the error of their ways

you know israel is a democracy right? you can't remain in government and not retaliate when you're attacked. otherwise you don't get to stay in power for much longer.

i know a little bit about israel

though i did cancel my plans to go there this summer (well before any of this happened)

ok. so they didn't retaliate to get the Palestinians to stop. they retaliated, mostly, because they have to if they want to keep their jobs. they basically ignored Sderot for 5 years. eventually you can't ignore them anymore.

i'm trying to say, this isn't like two kids and you expect the older kid to act more maturely. israel is a country, and countries and politicians have to act a certain way in the world. they didn't 'stoop down' to anything. they are a fucking country. if mexico was bombing texas, we'd burn them to the ground without a second thought.

"we'd" = the US.

WTF GUYZ?

Sorry, wrong thread. That belonged in the NFL thread.

to answer the original question: no

This stuff about it being disproportionate because loads more Palestinians get killed than Israelis isn't right. The rule isn't an eye for an eye. It's: is there a threat needing action? And if so, does Israel do only what is necessary to neutralise it? It's only disproportionate if Israel goes beyond what is necessary. If the threat requires burning Gaza to the ground, then doing so isn't disproportionate (it would have to be some threat, obviously, but not totally inconceivable e.g. if Hamas got the bomb, or everyone there planned a mass suicide mission)

it's true, we'd do that to mexico. we did that to afghanistan. although i do remember being in favor of restraint in that case. and the taliban are going to be back in charge any day now, right?

are the palestinians a bunch of children who aren't responsible for their actions?

actually, some of them are, though i doubt a laser-guided bomb (or a qassam rocket) can tell the difference.

i do wonder, if we beat a child when it's young, are we responsible for how it turns out as an adult? being an immigrant, i recall getting more beatings than my school friends, and harsher ones at that. and i turned out a model citizen, actually, if somewhat hampered in life by a tendency toward introspection. and as a teacher, i do wonder a lot if maybe some of my students could have done with a little less carrot and a little more stick.

i don't understand this disproportionate discussion at all. who determines whether it was proportionate or not? it seems to me like a lot of the people complaining think that any reaction would be disproportionate. Obviously Israeli leadership thinks it's a proportionate response.

ok, so it's fine. you can ask for restraint. but to complain about israel acting like a country seems totally bizarre.

Re disproportionate, what I said is the rule under international law. Which means pretty much that nobody determines whether it is disproportionate or not, or to put it your way you makes your determination for yourself. BBC Have Your Say contributors are not, thankfully, the ruling authority on the matter

but not all countries act that way. the US was acting like a country when, after WWII, it realized that "the threat" of japan and germany wasn't just their ability to mobilize tanks planes and soldiers, but also the threat that the regime after next when the americans left (well, they never really did, i guess) would be as bad or worse as the one they'd just dismantled. are the israelis ever thinking that far ahead?

unfortunately that sort of thinking is rare - apparently since WWII we've gotten much worse at thinking that far ahead.

i think if israel was once thinking about that, being demoralized by half a century of continuous war has made them want to just focus on the now.

i know, it's sad. but then the teachers and students in that school my colleague visited were showing some pretty-good long range thinking!

i think the "proportional" thing is totally a red herring. how is a nuclear country with a modern, bureacratic military supposed to respond proportionally to a country of guerilla fighters where it's not even clear who's really in charge at any given moment? it's funny to think they could even attempt such a thing, since the power dynamic is so unbalanced in the first place.

i do question the wisdom of knocking down a developing country's infrastructure so soundly ... can they really expect the *next* infrastructure to function more rationally than the first?