Ashlee Simpson: Emo or Oh no?

But anyway, you guys do understand that there were *lots* of different radio stations, so you could switch to the one that was playing the *good* song, right? Well now you do.

In the first season of her reality show, she was utterly adamant about not being "pop", got mad at one of her producers for giving her too much of a pop sound, but "not pop" to her probably means something like Offspring or The Used or something - not that you can be sure, seeing as how she's never seen talking about music other than her own. But I think that given her background it's not unreasonable to say that she probably can't conceive of any way of doing music outside that kind of showbiz world (dissatisfied as she probably is with certain aspects of it).

By the way, my Ashlee opinions are almost entirely based on her MUSIC. I have only seen her on TV a couple times. (I much preferred her first SNL appearance to her second one.)

Mine too; but I reckon that from the very fact of making a reality TV show out of the making of one's first album a few conclusions can be drawn. For example, my above point, that you're meant to feel like you're getting the real Ashlee, straight from the gut, and that anytime it's made clear that you're not, you're entitled to say "what the hell?"

Late-'70s soft rock: "I'd Really Love to See You Tonight"! Also The Little River Band! "Slow Dancing"!

Debby Boone
Andy Gibb
Barbra Streisand
Mary MacGregor
Marilyn McCoo & Billy Davis Jr
Glen Campbell
Bill Conti
Alan O'Day
Leo Sayer
David Soul
Shaun Cassidy
Barry Manilow

i like this point, alex...

"Many of the Punks (and, summarily, many of the post-punk bands) actually had THINGS TO SAY with their music and were more interested in NEWER, FRESHER, SIMPLER, MORE INNOVATIVE AND/oR MORE DIRECT WAYS OF SAYING IT"

But I'm not sure if this defines punk apart from disco - the difference might be in what the two genres had to say, but... seems like a littl' too much mythologizin' for any one 'style' of music. then again, you could say that i'm still a stain on my father's pants.

King Harvest vs. Starbuck

Really good Andy Gibb singles: I Just Want to Be Your Everything, (Love is) Thicker than Water, Shadow Dancing, Time is Time, maybe Desire. All of 'em on pretty much the level as great Bee Gees singles of the time, though nobody seems to remember. (Robin Gibb's "Boys Do Fall in Love" from 1984 may well trounce every one of them, though.)

One thing to remember is that the radio did not just mean #1 singles; sure, some of those were bad. Big whoop. Again, that's why we were born with opposable thumbs -- To change the radio station to something better. You can't judge an era just by its *worst* songs.

Also, I left out "So In To You" and (especially) "Imaginary Lover" by Atlanta Rhythm Section (AOR guys, maybe, sure, but way more A/C). And "Lonely Boy" by Andrew Gold. 'Twas a great era for onanism songs.

>is the lyrical content all that made "Hey Joe"/"96 Tears" a version of punk? I thought it was about how it stripped the MOR orchestral frippery and returned to something more audio verite.<

Not really sure what MOR frippery is being stripped here (especially with "Hey Joe", which dates back way before garage punk). These songs weren't rebelling against any other *music*, as far as I can see. But they were definitely getting revenge on the people they were pissed off at. (I still don't believe '70s punk's main point was reacting against other music, either -- if that *was* its main point, it really *was* shallow, which I don't think it was. And as I've said repeatedly, the other music wasn't so bad anyway; it didn't *need* to be rebelled against. And I say that as somebody who loves punk rock. But either way, this may be the first time I've ever heard somebody suggest that *'60s* punk was rebelling against other music. Mostly it was kids imitating Beatles/Stones/Yardbirds, crassly attempting to get on the radio. You can't rebel against *Sgt. Pepper's* if it doesnt exist yet. But maybe I'm missing something here. And yeah, when crate-digging Creem critics and reissue compilers started remembering "96 Tears" and "Hey Joe" in the '70s, I'm sure *they* were reacting against what they perceived as an MOR turn in rock. At least they said they were. But that was the fans, not the bands.)

I dunno, that sounds pretty naive to me! Wouldn't the mere fact that she's willing to have a TV show make it *less* likely that you're getting the "real" her? TV is acting! Including reality shows. So is recorded music; we're not talking some blues octagenarian serenading his dead dog on the porch. But the TV part only compounds the issue. Why would you expect a TV star to be anything *but* an actor? Either way, I'm still not sure how that would change how her music sounds. The CDs are completely the same whether she had a reality show or not.

So there's no distinction between punk and rock that has some attitude?

And besides, Ashlee's songs sure aren't *long* -- on the new album, they range from 2:34 to 4:15; is that any longer, on average, than the average Sex Pistols or Clash, much less Public Image Ltd, song?)

Okay, but she doesn't have any that are like 30 seconds long. Or a minute and a half. Whereas loads of punk bands do. I think of breaking the four minute mark as getting a little long.

Chorus to "Boyfriend" isn't reggae, of course. It's a sing-along pop-rock anthemic chorus.

1 Holidays in the Sun Cook, Jones, Rotten, Vicious 3:20
2 Bodies Cook, Jones, Rotten, Vicious 3:02
3 No Feelings Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:49
4 Liar Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:40
5 Problems Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 4:10
6 God Save the Queen Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:18
7 Seventeen Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 2:02
8 Anarchy in the U.K. Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:31
9 Submission Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 4:12
10 Pretty Vacant Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:16
11 New York Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:05
12 E.M.I. Cook, Jones, Matlock, Rotten 3:10

It's just something I noticed when making a punk compilation for my lil' bro-in-law, onto which I was able to cram far more than the usual number of songs in the 80-minute span of the disc.

(And anyway, in listening to the Sex Pistols now I'm no longer feeling the scabrousness and throat-retching thrill, now that the scabrousness and the throat retch have been assimilated to normality by 50 million subsequent bands.)

Hillary Duff in /Loveless/ album cover to THREAD.

Fair enough, but if "punk" is such a fluid concept, how is anyone supposed to win that argument?

What about: she's not interested enough in pissing people off?

(And even if the Sex Pistols did break an old pattern, which they may well have in some ways, there are plenty of rock bands who break *other* old patterns that nobody, even me, would ever consider punk. So if breaking old patterns is part of it, it can't be *all* of it.)

Yes, but maybe intentionality is important here.

(Yeah, Chuck, I agree with your disagreement about "breaking old patterns" per se, but maybe not per se there's is something to it: not just breaking any old pattern but the thrill of defying old patterns in a punk way. (That phrase brought to you courtesy of the Department of Tautology Department.) So the pattern you're copying is breaking someone else's form. (Department of Specious Reasoning?)

But then again, I think Stevie Nicks' Fleetwood Mac songs c. 1977 were more punk than anything the Clash or Buzzcocks ever did (which is not to criticize the Clash or Buzzcocks), so obv. I'm not saying that defying old patterns is the only way to be punk. (Stevie Nicks once referred to herself as the antipunk, which just shows she has no self-knowledge.)

In the late '70s I used to force myself to listen to Casey Kasem's American Top 40 every week, and I must see that except for the disco stuff the show was pretty dreary going for me. But maybe if I reapproached that era with my current ears I'd like it far more. For instance, I couldn't stand Hall & Oates, and I haven't really given them a relisten since, but I suspect I'd appreciate them far more.

I actually wish this would've spurred a Chris Rea discussion, but no such luck. (As in: In the U.K., or at least on the jukeboxes of the Irish bars in Sunnyside, Queens, he is apparently considered an AOR star, maybe an equivalent of Seger or Cougar or Petty or something. But in the States, to my knowledge, he has never been played on AOR radio, which makes him a one-hit-wonder who nobody heard of whose loan sad adult contemporary ballad hit #12 in 1978, then zilch.)xp

It's not that Ashlee is Punk or Punk Rock or Punky or not (and, for the record, she isn't)..it's that SHE DOESN'T WARRANT THIS MUCH DISCUSSION! She's a fucking momentary blip on the radar.

Well, he never wanted to tour in the States, which affected the degree to which he registered on the radar. Me, I like "The Road to Hell" and "Texas," though not nearly as much as "Fool." For some reason, the noncelebrity barroom rock of 1978-1982 has slipped through a black hole in radio, and so we miss out on not only Rea, but Paul Davis, Player, Gino Vannelli, Benny Mardones, and Greg Guidry. A shame, especially with Davis.

Sorry to digress, but you asked.

xp

Thanks, Joseph, you rule! I should totally check out Paul Davis; I want to have a more concrete opinion of "Cool Night," "I Go Crazy," and "'65 Love Affair" than I currently do. As for those other guys, let's see here, I definitely kinda like "Baby Come Back," I really like the Gino Vanelli song about those nights in Montreal, I have very little memory of Benny Mardones even though "Into The Night" apparently hit the top 40 something like 14 different times (always in the early summer), and I never heard of Greg Guidry til now. But if I see any of their albums in the dollar bins, I'll go for it! Ditto Chris Rea's other stuff; I bet he has a good best of CD. I should compare track listings on those Sunnyside jukeboxes (which also feature plenty of the Thin Lizzy by the way. And Thin Lizzy were sort of punk in a few different ways as well, it should be noted.)

I think if/when Ashlee is thinking about delivering a "punk" emotional and intellectual experience, she's probably aiming more at the Green Day/Blink 182/Sum 41 school of (pop) punk than anything. While her writers/co-writers/producers may have a lot more in mind, you're ascribing a lot to one kid who probably hasn't thought about it more than in passing. If she's consciously emulating anyone, it's the music she may have actually heard or her peers.

Punk-inflected pop rock.

I'm not talking about actual time in existence, I'm talking about the quality of their respective contributions. Twenty years from now, I sincerely doubt anyone's going to still be discussing the arguable merits of Ashlee's "La La," but I dare say people who still be talking about, say, the Count Five's "Psychotic Reaction" and/or "(I'm) Stranded" by the Saints.