I don't. That's opinion, not news.
― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 23 October 2003 10:37 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:03 (twenty years ago) link
oh now that's classic
― Aaron A., Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:55 (twenty years ago) link
I am very angry at Elliott Smith today.
xpost: Dadaismus, ES had received v. expensive tx for alcoholism, and everybody said/assumed that there was always an opiate component to his self-medicating.
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 23 October 2003 12:59 (twenty years ago) link
― dyson (dyson), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:01 (twenty years ago) link
[Actually I would quite like that if it was read out on the news Kent Brockman style, especially if he then pondered whether it was time for citizens to crowbar open each other's heads and feast on the goo inside]
― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:06 (twenty years ago) link
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:06 (twenty years ago) link
I agree, but I'm not sure what the answer is. Imagine if everyone receiving an SSRI now were in psychotherapy. We would need to quadruple the number of therapists.
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:08 (twenty years ago) link
+++The confusing thing for me was that the Under the Radar article gave me the impression he was doing a lot better. agreed! he had his new studio, plans to donate all new tour money to the abused kids foundation, 10 hour interview...
― kephm, Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:22 (twenty years ago) link
Fair enough. Actually I do remember hearing that he was hospitalized against his will sometime pre-XO, and was very unhappy about it. But I'm wondering WHY sick people sometimes refuse to get help. If we didn't stigmatize depression and addiction, perhaps it would be easier to accept help when it's available and offered? I'm not interested in "blaming" society or anyone else. I share John's anger at Elliott, but it seems like the best way for the music community to deal with this terrible loss would be to think about how we can keep it from happening again.
Imagine if everyone receiving an SSRI now were in psychotherapy. We would need to quadruple the number of therapists.
Actually the nice thing about therapy is that when it runs its course, you theoretically don't need it anymore. With SSRIs you have to keep taking them or you feel shitty again. That's why the prescription drug companies love them. SSRIs can definitely be helpful but they work best when used in conjunction with regular counseling. These days they're often handed out by general practitioners. If we had a TV commercial for the Society of Counseling Psychologists for every Prozac or Paxil commercial, I think a lot of people would be healthier.
― Kevin Erickson, Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:13 (twenty years ago) link
― dyson (dyson), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link
"Theoretically" is the key word there. I'm an advocate for therapy over drugs any day, but the field of psychology could use some tough love. As a science, it doesn't hold up particularly well. The success rate of psychotherapy is low compared to physical medicine. At this point, unfortunately, drugs hold up better under scientific scrutiny.
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 23 October 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link
"You can check out any time you like, but you may never leave".
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 23 October 2003 15:50 (twenty years ago) link
― peanut (peanut), Thursday, 23 October 2003 16:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 23 October 2003 17:04 (twenty years ago) link
Just my opinion. I do think this attitude has a big impact on the whole issue. It's easy to blame the victim but you never really know what state of mind someone is in with whatever disorder or problem they are dealing with. They might be capable of understanding it, but they might be in too deep to see the light. I never attempted suicide but there were times when I lost so much hope I literally didn't know what to do with myself anymore, and looking back with hindsight I don't think I was actually capable of seeing clearly at the time.
― Blood and sparkles (bloodandsparkles), Thursday, 23 October 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Jonathan (Jonathan), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:39 (twenty years ago) link
― he'snotdead, Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:51 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 23 October 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:11 (twenty years ago) link
this is awful.
rip.
― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link
(also not everyone on meds or in therapy is neccessarily suffering from a chronic mental illness. These are common treatments for many different troubles in life.)
― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Dean Gulberry (deangulberry), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link
― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:46 (twenty years ago) link
And again, plenty of people try to get help and don't perservere, because another counterintuitive aspect rarely mentioned is - it's very tough to start feeling better even if that's the goal, 'cause there is always the ease with which one can fall back into familiar depressive patterns. Getting well is hard if you're not used to being well, basically!
I consider myself lucky to have never been addicted to anything as it seems that addiction + depression is a doubly hard thing to get free of. I am sorry Elliott Smith quit fighting it.. and that they left knives around.. reminded me of telling a friend lately, dude, if you really feel like crashing yr car into a tree, hide your keys and don't get behind the wheel that day!
― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 23 October 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link
― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Thursday, 23 October 2003 20:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 23 October 2003 20:36 (twenty years ago) link
I ask, 'cos this is a pretty thoughtful (and lengthy) discussion. Perhaps airing these views has been therapeutic for ILMers themselves?
My experience is that mental illness is somewhat stigmatised (and that generation and, yes, geography can be influencing factors in this regard), but there are degrees of illness. I wouldn't hold someone who was severely psychotic accountable, but a mild clinical depression? I was diagnosed with PTSD and depression, and it was very difficult -- but with meds (initially -- try to get off of those suckers as early as possible unless you want your brain to feel like taffy) and simultaneous counseling, it's possible to beat it. But, then, subsequent vigilance has to be lifelong, and it can be exhausting.
I'm mad at Elliott Smith, I empathize with Elliott Smith, I feel sorry for Elliott Smith. All now pointless, because he's dead and doesn't care any more. It's complicated. I guess what I'm saying is: judging people is pointless... and yet, what else are we supposed to do?
― David A. (Davant), Thursday, 23 October 2003 23:26 (twenty years ago) link
daria OTM about how easy it is to revert to familiar patterns.
It does hit home for me because I've dealt with depression in varying degrees since childhood, and though I'd say my situation has improved a lot, it's something that's always there. And sometimes it's hard to stay completely in control, you have to be constantly aware of the patterns you're indulging in without realizing. (not to be exhibitionist, but none of you know who I am and vice versa, and I'm not necessarily ashamed that I've been in therapy before.)
― Blood and sparkles (bloodandsparkles), Thursday, 23 October 2003 23:30 (twenty years ago) link
Therapy is nothing to be ashamed of; more people should be willing to attempt it. Unfortunately, it still carries a stigma that scares people out of getting help. For instance, one of the better things I'm decent at is helping mates (even the odd stranger) by giving them a listening ear.
Sometimes, all you will want is to be heard. Who knows whether Smith had that?
― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Thursday, 23 October 2003 23:50 (twenty years ago) link
― RIP - Wesley/Elliott, Friday, 24 October 2003 11:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 24 October 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 October 2003 14:40 (twenty years ago) link
(1) if Smith's surrounding circumstances had been different -- he had someone to talk to, he didn't feel stigmatized for depression, he took medicine, he was in therapy, he had healthcare, people had different attitudes about artists -- then he might be alive today; or
(2) he was so miserable, was in such a terrible amount of emotional pain, and was so bent on killing himself (he tried before, right?) that there was no way to stop him.
I don't know Elliot Smith so I will never know which is true.
― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 24 October 2003 14:56 (twenty years ago) link
Oh fuck off with this Nick Drake BULLSHIT
― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 October 2003 15:03 (twenty years ago) link
― Spinktor the Unmerciful (mawill5), Friday, 24 October 2003 15:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 24 October 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
Somewhere back, someone (possibly Kenan) called ES's manner of suicide "punk rock" — that being because it was believed then that he stabbed himself in his stomach. So what is it then, now that it seems that he stabbed himself in his heart? MOR orchestral ballad-esque?
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 24 October 2003 17:02 (twenty years ago) link
So you're not one of the "sensitive people," I take it?
― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 24 October 2003 17:26 (twenty years ago) link
― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 24 October 2003 17:36 (twenty years ago) link
He's still alive and posting on ILM, isn't he?
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 24 October 2003 17:45 (twenty years ago) link