DIRE STRAITS c or d

Love them like Thin Lizzy, who they sometimes remind me of

Actually, Knopfler guests on a song on one of Phil Lynott's solo LPs (and they may have deeper connections beyond that, for all I know. Seems like both bands were somehow on the fringe of the UK's pub rock scene in the mid '70s -- even despite how big Lizzy were -- though maybe that's just my imagination. "Sultans of Swing" was basically about a pub rock band, as far as I can tell.)

s/t does seem to be unjustly ignored by nerds on the internet. It's likely to make my top 20 on any given day, even though I can basically take or leave the rest of their catalogue (that I've heard) - particularly after BIA. They were really hitting on something special that first go round.

I haven't had their albums for a long time, but I used to think the second one was too similar to the first (which had just charted, in the U.S. anyway, only five months before), though I always liked "Lady Writer" and "Once Upon A Time In The West." Making Movies in 1980 was their big critics' record -- #18 Pazz & Jop; I think Greil Marcus liked it a lot. But somehow Knopfler seemed to get less artistically ambitious and literary after that; maybe he worried he was getting too pretentious? So by '83 they were tossing off sillinesss like "Twistin' By The Pool" (I actually bought the 12-inch EP), and then a who-cares live album (which might actually be good, who knows), and then they exploded. Brothers In Arms was #9 in the U.S. for nine weeks! Really, that has to count as one of the big comebacks in rock history -- a #2 album, then five middling ones, then a huge #1.
I wonder to what extent their early fans considered them sellouts then, when they suddenly became the biggest dumbass sports-bar band around.
And then they never came close to that again; no charting albums for six years after their big one -- did they basically break up then, or what? And were they big in England, at all? They seemed to really go against the grain of the foppiness of '80s UK pop (which they clearly set themselves in opposition to.) I always hated "Walk Of Life," though.

Oops,I meant #1 in the U.S. for nine weeks (though #9 for nine weeks might be an even rarer accomplishment, for all I know.)

I love that knopfler didn't really let his virtuosity get the best of him in DS (haven't heard any of his post-DS stuff). He could have easily wanked off into the stratosphere and ruined out all those awesome minimal grooves.

These guys are masters of badass build-up intros

I used to think the second one was too similar to the first... Making Movies in 1980 was their big critics' record -- #18 Pazz & Jop; I think Greil Marcus liked it a lot. But somehow Knopfler seemed to get less artistically ambitious and literary after that; maybe he worried he was getting too pretentious? So by '83 they were tossing off sillinesss like "Twistin' By The Pool" (I actually bought the 12-inch EP), and then a who-cares live album (which might actually be good, who knows), and then they exploded. Brothers In Arms was #9 in the U.S. for nine weeks!

― xhuxk, Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:37 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

Agree that Communique feels rushed and indistinct. You get a several fine songs, but it's basically a less-inspired retread of the debut. Making Movies is at least half great (I mean REALLY great) and does seem to be the critic's favorite, but it looses steam in its second half. And "Les Boys" is just horrid. Agree, too, that the Twistin' EP was their turning point. It seems to reflect a conscious decision to lighten, brighten and streamline their sound - and to take in influences that might broaden it in various ways. So you get explicit pop pastiche stuff like the title track and "Two Young Lovers", as well as a loose, jokey feel overall. They retained this optimism and stylistic openness/economy for Brothers In Arms, though dialing back the humor, and I guess it served them well commercially - perhaps even artistically. But it drained away everything I liked about the group: the mystery, romance and quiet tension - their hypnotic, abstractly beautiful attention to pure sound. Maybe they did it because "Industrial Disease" made a bigger impression than "Telegraph Road", suggesting that the 80s weren't gonna be friendly to epic, ambitious guitar hero stuff. I dunno. I suppose I can't fault them for making one of the most popular albums of its era...

nice piece up there, contenderizer

LOL all this talk about 'from Brothers In Arms onwards' but I didn't even realize they'd DONE anything after Brothers In Arms.

Man, that was an album tailor made for Musician Magazine to write 8 zillion articles about...

Well, the second half of Brothers in Arms is pretty dark, FWIW: "The Man's Too Big", "Ride Across the River", and the title track.

Years ago I was a huge fan of the Alchemy; at the very least, the live version of "Sultan's of Swing" is fucking great.

'the man comes around' by johnny cash owes a little something to 'the man's too big' imo. kinda hate that album though and the steely dan assertion at top is wrong (rip big man) but their earlier stuff is pretty tight.

Probably haven't listened to Brothers in Arms since the 80s but I sure listened to it a lot back then. Should keep an eye out for Love Over Gold on vinyl. I had a poster of the LOG cover on the wall in my college dorm-- no wonder I never had a girlfriend.

Also love Knopfler's theme to Local Hero.

Yeah, Local Hero soundtrack is great overall, though better in context than as something to listen to on its own. Main theme ("Wild Theme" or whatever) is AMAZING though, and I would listen to it anytime anyplace, basically for free. Saw Real Estate tonite (thread connections) and their excellent "Pool Swimmers" reminds me A LOT of that song. I mean a lot a lot.

Plus appreciate kind words from Michael B xpost, but wish I'd like taken a second to read that that first long ramble before hitting submit. So many awkwardness.

Shit, I mean "FAKE BLUES"! Again with the read before post thing gddmit! Suggestion to people is to listen to FAKE BLUES and the Local Hero theme.

helpfully:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EyoXb4DtHA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AePShfa66LU

I dunno, maybe it's just me...

l accidentally started liking "sultans of swing" cause I thought it was dylan

to my ears that real state track sounds blatantly like egyptian reggae without the fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg7WG6tCbrw

These guys are masters of badass build-up intros

― guammls (QE II), Wednesday, November 18, 2009 8:54 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark

you need to search out Otterman Empire - Private Land for a dubbed out re-edit of Private Investigations.

it's one long badass build up intro

making movies is one of those albums where i probably played the first side 4,000,000 times and the second side, um, maybe 5 times.

am i the only one down with "expresso love"? (yeah it's kind of a re-write of "lady writer)

There's a bit in Sultans of Swing where the drummer goes into a double-time jazz beat for about five seconds which is amazing. Great track all round.

xpost nope, not just you. the "she was made in heaven" part's a little wack but the riff is pretty damn muscular imo

yeah, it's not like the first three songs on side 2 are bad or anything, they just don't quite compare. I used to play Skateaway on my parents' copy all the time when I was 11 or 12.

also Knopfler's solo tune "Vic and Ray" is awesome - it has this great ominous atmosphere and doesn't really sound like anything else he's done.

So I'm thinking that Dire Straits' debut LP is similar to Rickie Lee Jones' debut LP (same label Warner Bros., same year 1979 -- well, Dire Straits technically late '78 I guess, but didn't chart in the U.S. 'til January) in that both tease you by putting their only two non-slow songs with hooks and lyrics you'll actually remember when the songs are over at the beginnings of each side, then they get all drowsy and mumbly for the rest. Which I don't totally hate -- in DS' case, "Down The Waterline" and "Sultans of Swing" are very good and great songs respectively, and Knopfler's guitar has no problem carrying the rest of the LP as background atmosphere -- but it kind of pisses me off, since Knopfler was obviously a real writerly guy and you'd think he might be concerned with putting songs like "In The Gallery" (which might well prove him a homophobic asshole with no use for modern art, whatever) and "Wild West End" over. He probably does better with less arty blues-shuffle stuff like "Setting Me Up" and "Southbound Again," but I'm really not buying the schtick of those; just can't see him as the Delta blues codger he's pretending to be. Even Clapton did that way more convincingly. Still, guitar's great all over. And "Sultans" has to be one of the few songs in rock history (maybe any-music history) to deal expressly with audiences disagreeing about the definition of a musical genre. (As in "They don't give a damn 'bout any trumpet-playing band/It ain't what they call rock'n'roll"; pretty sure Knopfler disagrees, but at least he lets the pub-rocking-hating trendies in their brown baggies and platform soles have their say.) (Fwiw, I think "Wild West End" got some very brief AOR play in Detroit in '79, after "Sultans" and "Waterline" fell off -- like I heard it twice maybe -- but I might be conflating my memory of that with "Once Upon A Time In The West" off the second album, which definitely got airplay.)

"Down To The Waterline" I meant.

Also kinda neat how "Water Of Love" starts out exactly like something off Roxy Music's Manifesto ("Dance Away" I think), also from '79.

And "Sultans" has to be one of the few songs in rock history (maybe any-music history) to deal expressly with audiences disagreeing about the definition of a musical genre. (As in "They don't give a damn 'bout any trumpet-playing band/It ain't what they call rock'n'roll"; pretty sure Knopfler disagrees, but at least he lets the pub-rocking-hating trendies in their brown baggies and platform soles have their say.)

But the band is much more jazz than rock'n'roll, isn't it? I thought those lines were just to show that they're at the bar to get drunk, and will ignore anything outside of their chosen genre, even if the music is far superior to whatever they listen to.

Guess you could read it that way -- They're called the Sultans of Swing, after all, and they obviously have trumpets -- but I've always thought of them as more of an eclectic roots band, if anything. Harry with the daytime job "can play honky-tonk like anything"; "The Sultans played Creole"; the whole verse about George knowing all the chords but just wanting to play rhythm on his old guitar, which is all he can afford. So yeah, it's possible I've always read too much into it -- but it's more interesiting my way, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Didn't Dire Straits come up through the British pub-rock scene, though? Seems to me roots bands are would've played in those places, maybe often in front of glammy trendy drunk kids. But I could be wrong (and just because those bands played those places doesn't mean that's who he's singing about. But Knopfler obviously has a thing -- see "In The Gallery," "Money For Nothing" -- about pitting the salt of the earth against what he seems to see as the artsy hipster phonies of the world. The Harry in "In The Gallery," who crafts bareback riders and coal miners out of clay and stone but can't get into museums where abstract art gets shown, might even be the same Harry who plays in the Sultans!)

So now I've pretty much decided that, even without a song as great as "Sultans Of Swing," and even though it's sort of a rehash in some ways, Communique is a more consistent LP than the debut -- easier to attend to all the way through, thanks to more songs that stick and Knopfler frequently pushing his tasty guitar atmosphere to the forefront. Very sweet solos in "Where Do You Think You're Going?" and "Portobello Belle," and I also like his Latin stuff in "Angel Of Mercy" and country boogie in the otherwise kinda draggy title track and especially the spaghetti western with which he appropriately opens "Once Upon A Time In The West" -- the latter also being one of the two catchiest tracks along with "Lady Writer", which once again are both side openers and the ones that I think got AOR airplay back then. On the second side he seems obsessed with Catholic girls, not that he he seems all that incisive about the issue -- lady on TV talking about Virgin Mary while hair falls down upon her face as he remembers his fall from grace in "Lady Writer," angel who's gonna save his soul in "Angel Of Mercy," Irish girl taking part with a blind guy (bluesman maybe?) in what seems like it might be a halfway decent short story if I listened closer in "Portobello Belle." Also haven't figured out yet whether the sailor in "Single Handed Sailor" has one hand because he's jerking off or he has a hook or what. Mostly like the words of "Once Upon A Time In The West," which I gather is about L.A. rather than the Wild West End, though it seems peevish how Knopfler opens the album whining about people scaring pedestrians by exceeding the speed limit when his music's main problem is that it frequently could afford to go faster. Still, tempos do pick up some in general here, which helps.

Actually, guess I mean he seems defensive. And come to think of it, it might not be so much that BPMS increase a little ("Sultans of Swing" still feels like their most propulsive song by far) as that, in the non-single/filler tracks, he's enunciating more, and his writing and playing come off less perfunctory than on the first album.

He probably does better with less arty blues-shuffle stuff like "Setting Me Up" and "Southbound Again," but I'm really not buying the schtick of those; just can't see him as the Delta blues codger he's pretending to be

i always thought he was going for more of a j.j. cale, "tulsa sound" kind of thing...

Also haven't figured out yet whether the sailor in "Single Handed Sailor" has one hand because he's jerking off or he has a hook or what.

That made me laugh. Don't really know who or what the song is about, but the whole thing is set around this boat, which is in dry dock in Greenwich in London.

Agree with yr overall assessment of this album's worth btw.

(which i think he does rather brilliantly)

i should re-listen to Communique and Making Movies; i suspect they would stick to my ribs a little better now than they did 12-13 years ago when i was obsessing over s/t

xx-post

I've got 'Single Handed Sailor' stuck in my head now and I'm thinking that the tune is a lot like Dylan's 'Oh Sister'.

So okay, what's the deal with the Twisting By The Pool EP, from 1983? (Or, as my copy says on the cover, ExtendedDanc"EP"lay -- not sure what its official name is supposed to be; Joel Whitburn's book lists it as the former.) Contractual obligation, frustrated sellout move, record label pressure to go more "pop," bid for the European market, or what? Title track might be the lightest, most frivolous thing they ever did, and it didn't chart Hot 100 at all in the States (EP went to #53 on the album chart), but I remember it being pretty ubiquitous in Germany when I lived there. (Actually, just checked Wiki -- only #31 Germany, but #14 UK, #1 New Zealand, #2 Australia, #11 Italy; apparently got "rock" airplay in the States, but only reached #105 pop.) And I guess, yeah, a dance song, though who would actually be "twisting" in 1983? Stray Cats fans? Except the lyrics says they're on holiday at the beach, dancing to "the Eurobeat" (first time I ever heard that word, I think, but living in Germany I thought it was a perfect genre name.) Song doesn't sound cynical, but knowing Knopfler, it's gotta be right? Maybe a template for Brothers In Arms (which I haven't listened to in entirety for decades so this could be way off), as in: moving away from uppity literary aspirations toward putting out dumb records the masses will buy. Three other songs on the EP, most substantial being a talked-not-sung five-minute diddy-bebop quasi-jazz (as in Steely Dan maybe) workout called "Badges, Posters, T-Shirts," about fans looking for merch and (I think) claiming they could drum better than the drummer. The B-side songs really do sound like B-sides, pleasant but forgettable, one sax based and maybe very slightly jump-bluesy ("Two Young Lovers"), the other piano based and possibly an attempt at Blonde On Blonde era Dylan. Did anymore care?

"Did anybody care?," I mean. (Actually, I was thinking they were on a career downswing by that point, and just fishing for whatever they could get, but I just noticed in Wiki that Love Over Gold from 1982 -- which I know basically nothing about -- apparently went #1 all over Europe, their first album to do so, but peaked at #19 in the States just like Making Movies before it had. So it's possible that, by this point, they figured the Euromarket was their future.)

"Two Young Lovers" - haha, that's the yakety sax song right?

Sax is by Mel Collins of King Crimson btw iirc

Contractual obligation, frustrated sellout move, record label pressure to go more "pop,"

A little of everything perhaps? The video for the title track was in pretty heavy MTV rotation and I recall that Rolling Stone had a very prominent review (I'm sure paid for). Love Over Gold was a complete non-entity in the US (despite the charts).

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/music/faggot-to-be-removed-from-dire-straits-song-20110114-19q9m.html

i never even knew that word was in the song until i read about that this morning!

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/music/faggot-to-be-removed-from-dire-straits-song-20110114-to-be-replaced- with-leftover-nigger-from-huck-finn-19q9m.html

guilty lol

guilty post

I think "Twisting by the Pool" EP is mostly an example of how they liked to play with American idioms. One interesting thing about Dire Straits, which connects w/ what someone said about Thin Lizzy, is how at their best they interpret and put their own spin on very "American" sounding rock'n'roll. Dire Straits did this a few different ways-- from proggy Springsteen-style epics to "yackety sax" kind of stuff-- and their fortunes in the U.S. really hinged on where their sound was at any given point and how well if fit with emerging, early-80s ideas of what "classic rock" meant.

"Twisting by the Pool" was also a harbinger for the boomer nostalgia of the 80s. For people of a certain age, it sounded like the music they heard as kids.

I've always suspected that "Twisting by the Pool" came about partly because they had just hired ex-Rockpile drummer Terry Williams, who was born to wail frantically on songs like this.

Sarcasm and irony is inappropriate in 2011?

Me on Love Over Gold: http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/dire-straits-love-over-gold.html

eastern europe, africa, dire straits is truly global

no pick!

the tone is amazing for sure! but there's also something about his melodic choices, and (crucially IMO) the way the songs are structured to create a sympathetic bed for the solos

I love how lyrical his playing is without getting bogged down in big, bent notes. He sort of skirts along the edges of country and jazz and blues without quite landing on any of them. Possibly in this thread but certainly elsewhere people have compared his playing to Richard Thompson, which never really occurred to me, though when I think about it I can see the occasional resemblances. Imo Thompson is more clearly the untouchable virtuoso, yet while I love every minute of his guitar playing it's just so ... playful and alive ... and eerily perfect, no matter the context. Thompson may write better melancholy, mournful songs, but Knopfler's playing actually captures that vibe better. He often sounds like he's searching for something.

Vocals aside, "Hand in Hand" used to remind me of Springsteen in spots, and sure enough Roy Bittan's on piano (with Iovine producing, fresh off of Darkness on the Edge of Town). It can be pleasant enough, otherwise it would never work the way it did in Everybody Wants Some!! "Solid Rock" always sounded like rote stuff to me, like throwaway lyrics applied to a band warm-up. "Expresso Love" never really goes anywhere, and it's probably the best cut on side B. Every time I put on that side, it felt like I was listening to B-sides or outtakes.

I recently realized that the "Telegraph Road" of that lengthy song is the same one I grew up on, in the Detroit area. Never made that connection because people in that region never verbally identify streets with "road", "street", "avenue", etc. 8 Mile instead of 8 Mile Road, like. We just knew/know it as "Telegraph."

Interesting... can confirm this (I also grew up around there).

back when I was a kid (in the 80s) I viewed Dire Straits as the exact midway point between Floyd and Springsteen

― brimstead, Tuesday, November 17, 2020 1:40 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Their strength and their weakness IMO....

xp from one of many links:

The Telegraph Road is a major north-south 70 mile thoroughfare in Michigan. Mark Knopfler was inspired to write this song while riding in the front of the tour bus, which made the journey down Telegraph Road. At the time, Knopfler was reading the novel The Growth Of the Soil by the Nobel Prize winning Norwegian author Knut Hamsun and he was inspired to put the 2 together and write a song about the beginning of the development along Telegraph Road and the changes over the ensuing decades. This was a metaphor for the development of America and the ruining of one man's dreams in the wake of its decline, in particular focusing on unemployment.

Guessing the bus was on its way to Pine Knob, and they took Telegraph to Square Lake to 75.

Bittan is all over "Making Movies." His playing on "Tunnel of Love" is as important to the song as the guitar.

Is it me, or is like Knopfler like really popular in Eastern Europe? That is a vibe I get from the videos and comments on Youtube vids about Knopfler and Dire Straits.

His father was Hungarian, maybe that's in there somewhere.

Also I don't think I knew, till recently, that he was born in Glasgow and lived there till he was 7.

I’ll probably end up getting cancelled but I’ve never got why ‘Les Boys’ gets such a bad rap...sure it’s a bit dated and gauche but fundamentally it’s quite sweet and for a pretty huge rock band to write a LGBQT seems fairly progressive...I say fairly

Thompson may write better melancholy, mournful songs, but Knopfler's playing actually captures that vibe better. He often sounds like he's searching for something.

I like that way of putting it. His guitar often sounds to me like it's thinking. I think I said this upthread somewhere, but as a kid I used to listen to Knopfler's guitar and feel like I was [this close] to being able to decode what it was saying and put it into words. There's something in his solos that - to me - has the rhythms of human speech, like someone half-articulating a thought, pausing, saying "but on the other hand," and following the thought off through tangents that seem like they're going to resolve but never quite do. Idk if it sounds like that to anyone else.

And he never sounds to me like he's showing off, which is also pretty cool. I mean, impressive as his solos are, they always feel like they're central to the mood of the song and he's not just showboating.

this close was supposed to be in italics, obviously. Grr.

i have not really listened to any dire straits or mark knopfler, i tried that "prairie wedding" song someone mentioned above and that solo is definitely something, i would say it's thoughtful, articulate and searching but definitely low-key about it. kind of sells the song imo.

That whole album is really good, iirc. I'm not sure I've heard any of the albums after it, though, and there have been ... several. But from that album you also get this gem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxl2YGDJEAM

(Album features guest backing vox from James Taylor, Van Morrison, Gillian Welch and David Rawlings, and the guys from Squeeze. Knopfler showing off his rolodex there.)

Wish he'd just turned up at the Hall Of Fame, played Les Boys solo, then left

Checked to see if I posted the live version of Portobello Belle that I really like; looks like I did, about a year ago.

I’ll probably end up getting cancelled but I’ve never got why ‘Les Boys’ gets such a bad rap...sure it’s a bit dated and gauche but fundamentally it’s quite sweet and for a pretty huge rock band to write a LGBQT seems fairly progressive...I say fairly

― X-Prince Protégé (sonnyboy),

Don't get defensive -- there's no point.

I don't find it sweet or dated -- it's a dumb heavy-handed attitude toward a slice of gay culture about which a casual Fassbinder fan would've had some insight. I find Rod Stewart's "The Killing of Georgie" awkward, gauche, and often stupid but way more empathetic.

agreed. the melody is nice, lyrics should be about lying in a field eating grapes or something

I think Mark Knopfler's lyrics are often dumb and heavy-handed. I think the guitar is really his native language; he has such lyricism in his guitar solos, and such nuance and lightness of touch, but he's much clumsier with words, imo. His choruses are often good, and sometimes he gets a kind of dark ominous vibe going in the lyrics that works for him, but there's a lot of really clunky try-hard stuff in there too.

I think that's one reason his star has fallen lately; the other, imo, is he's just not weird enough. Telegraph Road is a good song, but if you heard it described on paper, you'd think it was a lot stranger and more atmospheric than it is.

otm

Hate this band but great name

really? Pre-Brothers in Arms, it’s great bar music imo

Example please

I mean...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fAQhSRLQnM

It's so much better than great bar music! Unless you mean, like, music you don't mind when it comes on in a bar, in which case, sure. But, for example, this song is a beaut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAirINwjaxE

well yeah I just meant cuz calstars likes bars, I wasn’t implying they were a “bar band” I just mean ~vibes~

“tunnel of love” is awesome.. lyrics aside it always sounded really... dangerous to me, like some violence is about to pop off idk

well yeah I just meant cuz calstars likes bars, I wasn’t implying they were a “bar band” I just mean ~vibes~

wtf is that video for Tunnel of Love

and the first three Dire Straits albums are bar ambient if there ever was, Knopfler soloing on a Strat is what beer tastes like

Heh, tell that to Eric "Michelob" Clapton, who basically personified "cheap beer in the '80s." Knopfler soloing is the sound of you getting home, thinking about what you did or didn't do.

“Bar ambient” ?

Brian wino

Lol

And "Romeo and Juliet" is neither bar nor ambient.

bar ambient is equally good if you ignore it or focus drunkenly on it in an attempt to remain upright

The fuck is bar ambient tho

That Tunnel of Love clip might be the most Yawnsomely Literal music video I've ever seen.

love over gold is basically an ambient album

Love over Green World

My wife: "Dire Straits were dad rock before I knew what dad rock was."

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMYMhS78R/