Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

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"California Girls"!

And also "I Can't Come" by the Snivelling Shits. Which actually does a breakdown and goes back to its introductory guitar riff partway through (in one of the two recordings), just so it can pull the where's-the-downbeat trick again.

The original 12" version of "Blue Monday" starts with beat 3 (the beginning of the budubudubudubudubum bit). On "Substance," the first two beats are there.

Thus Sang Freud is absolutely right about "I Want to Hold Your Hand." And every band that covered it for the six months after it came out thought it started on beat 4. It's kind of hilarious to hear.

Douglas, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 17:29 (fourteen years ago) link

"California Girls"!

What?

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

The Cars ref reminded me of a good one -- "Touch and Go"

WmC, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 17:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Jordan: In addition to starting on the 2 beat, different sections throughout the whole song are going back and forth between starting on the 1 and 3 beats, to the point where it's hard to determine which is which, and the guitar lick seems to treat the 3 as if it were the 1. It's a lot more complex than you are giving credit for.

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:12 (fourteen years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9xx5Ri278

Duh! Duh Duh Duh! (Doh! not yet!) Duh Duh Duh!

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:22 (fourteen years ago) link

^^^^ you are terrible at music, I hope you realize this

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

right (although actually i think the last bar of the bridge, the one where the drums drop out, is 3 beats long. then the drums come back in on the 2, right after she says "single" on the downbeat like you say).

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:38 (fourteen years ago) link

The beat emphasis is weird there but if you count it out, it ends up ending on a 2/4 measure, not a 3/4.

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:46 (fourteen years ago) link

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:53 (fourteen years ago) link

lots of house does this to me when the 2/4 snares are playing before the bass beat kicks in

near the last climax of 'where you go i go too' by lindstrom. the beat drops out for a while and when the epic synth line fades in i have this simultaneous thing of knowing i'm nodding my head to the wrong beat and knowing where the downbeat is but not really knowing and it takes a second to click.

Matt P, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 18:55 (fourteen years ago) link

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mVEGfH4s5g

Nope. Skip to 2:20 and start counting. "Ghost" is on the downbeat of a 4/4 bar. "Gone" is beat 1 of 2/4. "Single" is beat 1 of 4/4. The only way it could fit if "Ghost" kicks off two 3/4 bars in a row; there are six beats between "ghost" and "single".

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:00 (fourteen years ago) link

it's "fun" to keep track of the downbeat during like an autechre song x-post

Matt P, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:01 (fourteen years ago) link

dan, u crazy. if you starting counting from "ghost" (on beat 1), there are three beats until "single", not two beats. then the drums come back in on beat 2.

oh wait, you must be counting double-time compared to how i'm counting it! if that's true, you're saying the same thing (ie 6 beats how you're counting it = 3 beats the way i'm counting it. not sure how you're fitting 6 beats into a 2/4 bar).

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:13 (fourteen years ago) link

so do you hear the snare drum on beat 4 of a two bar phrase, or on the & of 4? i hear it as the latter.

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Dan, I think you are counting beats at twice the speed everyone else is. The way I'm counting it, the claps are 8th notes, in which there are three beats between "ghost" and "single".

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:19 (fourteen years ago) link

haha xps

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:19 (fourteen years ago) link

I just realized my last sentence makes little sense.

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:21 (fourteen years ago) link

"^^^^ you are terrible at music, I hope you realize this"
relax! it is survivor, not limp bizkit.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Jordan made the point I was trying to make re: counting tempo better than I did.

Anyway, the guitar line and the "whoa-oh-OH!" sections and the "now put your hands up!" that appears a couple times all emphasize the 3 more than the 1.

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Anyway, the guitar line and the "whoa-oh-OH!" sections and the "now put your hands up!" that appears a couple times all emphasize the 3 more than the 1.

it's true that they come in the middle of the bar instead of starting on the 1. just listen to the drums i guess.

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, not arguing there, they just create some ambiguity until you figure it all out.

steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 19:28 (fourteen years ago) link

kinda hard to hear on tinny computer speakers, but I love the way the bass line inverts on live skull's "mr evil" when the band comes in 1 beat early

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR8YzP-dKbc

鬼の手 (Edward III), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link

this is my white whale btw (michael jackson's rock with you). it starts in a totally clear way (four beats and you're in), but the bassline (and some of the other parts) always makes me want to hear the 1 on what is really beat 3. always have to concentrate, which of pisses me off because it should be a simple pop song.

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 21:14 (fourteen years ago) link

haha yes the issue here is that I'm counting each clap as a quarter note, not an eighth note, so basically Jordan and I are saying the exact same thing only I'm expressing it as 4/4 + 2/4 and he's expressing it as 3/2

carry on

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 21:19 (fourteen years ago) link

beatles "got to get you into my life"

that intro has always confused me. the tambourine comes in on the downbeat but there's no way of knowing that until the singing starts two bars later.

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 21:42 (fourteen years ago) link

Welcome back, fact checking cuz!

Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 21:48 (fourteen years ago) link

thanks!

fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 21:51 (fourteen years ago) link

lots of house does this to me when the 2/4 snares are playing before the bass beat kicks in

ah, I used to enjoy this with electro sometimes, especially since a lot of that stuff is so blocky and grid-like that you can pretty easily will yourself to just keep hearing it the wrong way around (snares on 1 + 3, etc) all the way through, with no great conflict. for some reason I always found it fun to try and do that, then switch back and forth in my head, like you do with one of those drawings that's two things at once -- you know, how fast can your brain flip back and forth from interpreting it the right way to the backward way

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 19 November 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Am I right that some of the songs mentioned here don't have a downbeat? Like the Grateful Dead's "The Eleven"?

Mark, Thursday, 19 November 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

Do any Grateful Dead songs have a downbeat?

Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 01:54 (fourteen years ago) link

oh and by the way: I think one main place you see this often -- from the early 90s through the present -- is in loopy electronic music, for reasons having to do with the recording process, and the way that "writing" and "production" are the same step. if you're toying with loops or arranging a song and you solo a particular track, you might suddenly hear some rhythm in it that's counter to the rhythm of the whole song (especially with things like fluttery loops or three-step delays or arpeggios, etc.), and that becomes really easy to play with. so I feel like in a lot of (say) early-90s loop-based electronic stuff, you'd get people who'd bring out something like that and then switch the beat around -- and these days you get the same thing from acts like the Field, where there are lots of rushy loops and delays going on that could be placed against the downbeat on whatever rhythm you wanted.

that same tracking process seems like a thing with rock bands, too -- basically anyone who writes/assembles music using a computer is going to be that much more likely to solo one instrument, notice another way it could fall against the rhythm, loop it, think about it, and maybe write a bit into the intro or something that toys with that.

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Thursday, 19 November 2009 01:57 (fourteen years ago) link

Do any Grateful Dead songs have a downbeat?

― Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs)


haha, well, "The Eleven" is in 11/8 so I'm wondering if "find the downbeat" might be a trick question.

Mark, Thursday, 19 November 2009 02:00 (fourteen years ago) link

As far as the intro to"Just What I Needed," you want to hear the big chord as ONE. I listened to it all the way through several times and tried to count it out and when the downbeat came I knew I was off but my brain immediately corrected so I didn't know how far off. So finally I just backtracked a few seconds and then I was immediately able to tell that the big chord was on FOUR or FOUR,FOUR-AND.

Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 02:06 (fourteen years ago) link

This commercial fools you into thinking that the keyboard part is on the downbeat until the rest of the instruments come in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQwdfhwYdS0

Evan, Thursday, 19 November 2009 03:48 (fourteen years ago) link

Lennie Tristano - Line Up

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569458054722392&rct=j&ei=Jd4ES7-mFo7ilAelwvSjDA&sa=X&oi=music_play_track&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAgQ0wQoADAA&q=lennie+tristano+line+up&usg=AFQjCNH0UyDyrjCBMH_aa_fHfDjbIlHkbQ

I have actually spent YEARS trying to understand all of the faux-shifts in this, and I still can't figure out what's going on from about 1:10 to 1:28

Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Thursday, 19 November 2009 05:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Sparks - Decline and Fall of Me. I also have this happen in my head with a lot of Ethiopian music where, if I concentrate hard enough, the entire mood and context of the song shifts.

mason, Thursday, 19 November 2009 07:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Drive My Car intro
Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me And My Monkey intro

"I'm Free" The Who, back and forth verse and chorus are seemingly different downbeats

billstevejim, Thursday, 19 November 2009 07:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Devo "Satisfaction" is my favorite one listed here so far.. sooooo disorienting.

billstevejim, Thursday, 19 November 2009 07:45 (fourteen years ago) link

relax! it is survivor, not limp bizkit.

I prefer Limp Bizkit to Survivor fwiw.

billstevejim, Thursday, 19 November 2009 07:47 (fourteen years ago) link

Re: All Along The Watchtower, I haven't heard it incorrectly in so long, I forgot that this was one of those disorienting intros.. I recall being in 5th or 6th grade and forcing myself to hear it correctly.

The intro of "A Day In The Life" is like this also but only because the fadeout from "Sgt Pepper (reprise)" makes it difficult to hear where the song actually begins.. If you hear the version on "1967-1970" the downbeat is obvious.

billstevejim, Thursday, 19 November 2009 07:58 (fourteen years ago) link

"The Impression That I Get" intro, and prolly lots of ska

billstevejim, Thursday, 19 November 2009 08:03 (fourteen years ago) link

I always found it fun to try and do that, then switch back and forth in my head, like you do with one of those drawings that's two things at once -- you know, how fast can your brain flip back and forth from interpreting it the right way to the backward way

yeah, i think this is actually a super important musician skill. like if you're playing with someone and they do an intro that you know you're feeling wrong, being able to force your brain to shift to the correct downbeat.

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:03 (fourteen years ago) link

the first note of the tuba bassline is on the & of 1 (or on the 2 if you're counting double time), used to be hard for me to feel it right away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1LlnrL1Jis

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:05 (fourteen years ago) link

still lolling at the double-time confusion, I usually don't do that

lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:06 (fourteen years ago) link

switch back and forth in my head
This is very easy to do when listening to reggae.

Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:12 (fourteen years ago) link

Metallica - Fight Fire with Fire
Metallica - Battery
Metallica - Blackened

Chuffed Wiff Morrisound (Thijs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Also: Immortal - Hordes to War, but that's just because it's such a perfect 'Fight Fire with Fire' rip-off.

Chuffed Wiff Morrisound (Thijs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:21 (fourteen years ago) link

still lolling at the double-time confusion, I usually don't do that

i think it comes up a lot with dancehall/clave-ish beats. i know different people in my own band count it differently, which can make for the same kind of fun when you try and talk about it.

hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:23 (fourteen years ago) link

super important musician skill
You will often hear people say about various cats "he plays all the syncopated stuff, but he knows where the one is at all times."

Also, in Latin music, everybody talks about the clave, but underneath even that is the downbeats, the 1 & 3, which some people call the pulse. In a typical performance, nobody is playing the pulse, maybe nobody is even playing the clave, but everybody knows where it is.

Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 19 November 2009 15:28 (fourteen years ago) link


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