Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcKZ2U8FHs&feature=player_embedded

The into to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" gets me every time. Intellectually I know they're echoing the syncopation of the "I can't hide" part, but that's not how I hear it.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

i don't think so, it's just playing a part that doesn't start on the 1, without any kind of rhythm section context to it.

The closest I can get is "pickup note(s)".

Musicians, you are letting me down. Pro Wrestlers would have named this trick right quick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_note

also known as "anacrusis"

But that will just throw you off for less than a bar until you hear that first downbeat. I liked Jordan's explanation about the lack of rhythm section context.

i think it's called "offbeat bare ass"

One time in 1994 I heard "Sabotage" on the wrong beat right when Ill Communication came out and it was awesome, but that never happened again

" lack of rhythm section context."

the rhythmless intro is different from the riff that follows.

like here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkhhLC1tf8

it's the same in that nirvana example you posted

no they are different
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo (in intro)
versus
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo doo (in main)
or something like that, might be missing a dee or doo somewhere

You gotta trust me man duck tales is hella math rock.

nah i think you're getting fooled. the riff starts with a pickup note, so the first "doo" is the pickup and the second "doo" is the 1. if you start counting in the right place at the beginning, the riff doesn't change when the bass & drums come in.

The Cars' "Just What I Needed" is like a perfect example of this. You almost have no choice but to count it all wrong until the vocal and the hi-hat come in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hwE0slNd3Y

I look forward to the great duck tales debate going for pages and pages!

it starts off:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

this repeats as the doooo naaaaa naaa noooo part comes underneath

but when the rhythm track comes in:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee da | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

i was talking about the nirvana song!

"You Really Got Me" by the Kinks threw me the first time I heard it, but it's such a memorable and ubiquitous tune that I never had the opportunity to enjoy the effect again...try as I might.

I seem to remember writing an analysis essay of a Mozart sonata that REALLY fucked around with this sort of thing: not only did it give a false impression of the time signature, but the key as well (major for minor, or vice-versa), and the resolution was delayed until well into the first bar-proper. Clever bugger, that Mozart. Beethoven messes with the beat at length in many of his sonatas, but I definitely wasn't paying attention in that class.

I'm always thrown by "Walking on the Moon" by the Police in this regard. There's also a bunch of Genesis songs but I cant think of any examples off the top of my head.

"Walking on the Moon" OTM. That song has absolutely one of the most fucked-up drum parts of any song ever.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

Syncopation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gwbXjHNcwA

'Little Secret' by Passion Pit, just before the second verse

'I'm Coming Out' by Diana Ross is practically built around this idea

'Bone Machine' by the Pixies

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

This is my favorite element of "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)". I can never keep track of the snare drum!

ahh, I can add one definite example!

"Hands off, she's mine" The Beat.

I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit

ARGH! I have never heard this song properly because of precisely this issue! This downbeat thing has long been one of my favourite/most infuriating things about music.

I heard 'Dig for Fire' in the pub on Sunday and got to thinking about the trick again.

More please!

Is She's A Woman one of these?

yeah

Basement Jaxx's "Same Old Show" - the Selecter "On The Radio" sample is used in such an odd way, that it completely throws me off. I also used to get this a lot with techno/hard trance. There was one Dave Clarke track in particular... doh, no use, can't remember it...

Does it go "Barooo Ga!"

I posted a thread about this sort of thing using Vince Guiraldi's "Linus and Lucy" as an example - when I was a kid I thought the downbeat started an eighth note earlier than it does

Never had a problem with "Walking on the Moon", but "Spirits in the Material World" still trips me up from time to time if I hear it wrong. So much emphasis on the off-beat, kick used as a snare.

Besides "Wake Up", XTC also has "Millions" and probably others I can't recall. They seem like the type to do this sort of thing.

The intro to the Cars' "Since You've Gone" also used to get me, though it's pretty obvious once the kick and snare come in.

Basement Jaxx's "Same Old Show" - the Selecter "On The Radio" sample is used in such an odd way, that it completely throws me off. I also used to get this a lot with techno/hard trance. There was one Dave Clarke track in particular... doh, no use, can't remember it...

― mike t-diva, Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:13 AM Bookmark

Probably cause it's in 7/8 time but doesn't really draw attention to the time signature.

This is my favorite element of "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)". I can never keep track of the snare drum!

― nicegeoff, Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:31 PM Bookmark

co-sign

Oh yea, Millions by XTC always gets me, never comes together in my head until the skippy drum bit comes in.

"single ladies" has a super simple dancehall beat, but the song starts on beat 2 just to fuck with you

The best example of metric ambiguity in The Cars' JWIN isn't at the beginning, its at circa 2:03 in the video posted above by Pancakes. The snare drum flips from 2+4 (typical) to 1+3 (which tends to sound like a displaced 2+4). The protagonist's reference to losing his mind is an obvious motivation for this detail. Play from 1:56 (beginning of third verse) to hear it in context.

"California Girls"!

And also "I Can't Come" by the Snivelling Shits. Which actually does a breakdown and goes back to its introductory guitar riff partway through (in one of the two recordings), just so it can pull the where's-the-downbeat trick again.

The original 12" version of "Blue Monday" starts with beat 3 (the beginning of the budubudubudubudubum bit). On "Substance," the first two beats are there.

Thus Sang Freud is absolutely right about "I Want to Hold Your Hand." And every band that covered it for the six months after it came out thought it started on beat 4. It's kind of hilarious to hear.

"California Girls"!

What?

The Cars ref reminded me of a good one -- "Touch and Go"

Jordan: In addition to starting on the 2 beat, different sections throughout the whole song are going back and forth between starting on the 1 and 3 beats, to the point where it's hard to determine which is which, and the guitar lick seems to treat the 3 as if it were the 1. It's a lot more complex than you are giving credit for.

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9xx5Ri278

Duh! Duh Duh Duh! (Doh! not yet!) Duh Duh Duh!

^^^^ you are terrible at music, I hope you realize this

Actually it isn't. The only thing in the song that's complex is that the end of the bridge ends with a half measure; every time Beyonce sings the word "single", that's the downbeat.

right (although actually i think the last bar of the bridge, the one where the drums drop out, is 3 beats long. then the drums come back in on the 2, right after she says "single" on the downbeat like you say).

The beat emphasis is weird there but if you count it out, it ends up ending on a 2/4 measure, not a 3/4.

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

lots of house does this to me when the 2/4 snares are playing before the bass beat kicks in

near the last climax of 'where you go i go too' by lindstrom. the beat drops out for a while and when the epic synth line fades in i have this simultaneous thing of knowing i'm nodding my head to the wrong beat and knowing where the downbeat is but not really knowing and it takes a second to click.

got to disagree dan, the bar where she says "like a ghost i'll be gone" is 3/4 (then the drums come back in on 2 of the next bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mVEGfH4s5g

Nope. Skip to 2:20 and start counting. "Ghost" is on the downbeat of a 4/4 bar. "Gone" is beat 1 of 2/4. "Single" is beat 1 of 4/4. The only way it could fit if "Ghost" kicks off two 3/4 bars in a row; there are six beats between "ghost" and "single".

I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.

(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)