― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link
Roguists would prefer there to be more games that are based on ideas that are beautiful. Non-roguists believe that this is anti-fun, and are maybe right.
(Laura)I think that's a really romanticized notion. I don't know how
"- anti save game trendencies- permadeath- etc"
necessarily equal "beautiful ideas" or that more modern RPGs do not. I see it as more of a accommodating vs. ascetic binary, or even indulgent fantasy vs. gritty "realism" (e.g. you die, you DIE). There are plenty of games with "beautiful ideas" but also beautiful visual execution of those ideas, which are not "rogueist." In fact, are rogueist games even allowed to be pretty?
Okay, you are right to call me on this, I meant a very specific type of beautiful idea, beautiful is maybe even the wrong word rather than say "pure". An example I can think of is Loom (which is pretty much straight-up LucasArts except instead of inventory manipulation you have to cast "spells" by playing "music" on yr distaff to solve puzzles, you learn more as you go etc). Anyway anyway, Loom has a normal and a hard mode, in the normal mode when spell stuff happens you get coloured lights and the musical letters show up etc so you can be all "oh right that's untangle". But on hard, all you hear is the notes, you have to have music-type pitch-hearing to do it.
Ok so, to be to me this type of "hard mode" is fundamentally different to the hard mode on say Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance where there are just more monsters and they have more hitpoints etc - if both games were released with only hard mode, BADA would be "difficult" whereas Loom would be "rogueist" because the hardness would be an *effect* of a decision to choose pureautiful idea over unfrustrating play...
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Monday, 17 October 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link
1) Roguelikes: Roguelikes :: Rock : Rockism (a videogame rockist: Tim Rogers!)
2) In a DROD-style puzzlegame, to alter a puzzle from allowing five wrong moves to allowing three is not rogueist. To alter it from allowing three to allowing one is.
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Monday, 17 October 2005 18:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Also I should sound less like a wanker, throughout.
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Monday, 17 October 2005 18:11 (eighteen years ago) link
Your Loom analogy is elegant.
― Laura H. (laurah), Monday, 17 October 2005 19:14 (eighteen years ago) link
What about platformers, though. Are there any that even qualify as having roguelike qualities? I remember Clash at Demonhead having a great deal of ridiculous, challenging shit going on, and not letting up for even a minute, but really just being able to choose your own route to the end game a la Mega Man isn't all it takes, is it? It's still the same game over and over, knowing the map is about the only trick you pick up.
― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link
Remember in the DOS Red Baron on 5.25" disks the "Realism" settings that would make your plane have all sorts of quirks and shit. Totally!!!!!!
― jw (ex machina), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― jw (ex machina), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:13 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Nöödle Vägue (noodle vague), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:19 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Nöödle Vägue (noodle vague), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― jw (ex machina), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― elmo (allocryptic), Friday, 21 October 2005 01:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:59 (eighteen years ago) link
This is what I think, too, and I think Rogueism isn't just about simulation being accurate in the confines of a very small set of circumstances, but letting you find lots of different solutions to the problems in the game. Exploring can take lots of different forms, my idea is that some kind of exploration being allowed (and rewarded) is the key. A simulation that beats you about the head with total "realism" in the context of one complex activity doesn't let you explore jack shit. Gran Turismo is all about whatever kind of garageload of ridiculous vehicles you want to build yourself to drive around whatever tracks you please, within the confines defined by gear ratios, tire wear and $$$$, which is why I put it forward.
― TOMBOT, Friday, 21 October 2005 16:11 (eighteen years ago) link
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 22 October 2005 02:11 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Monday, 24 October 2005 13:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 24 October 2005 23:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 25 October 2005 15:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 27 October 2005 22:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link
...
thom jesus west (4:55:14 PM): oh dear. nethack-you just got killed.thom jesus west (4:55:21 PM): you killed and ate some gnomes first tho.
― :[ (Adrian Langston), Friday, 28 October 2005 01:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 28 October 2005 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link
I'm not saying it isn't I'm just asking cos I'm not sure I have a clear handle on what rogueism is still but I want to learn
― c7n (Cozen), Friday, 28 October 2005 19:27 (eighteen years ago) link
What I though Tom was talking about here is the distinction between, say Kingdom Hearts, where you can wander around the beginning level for two or three days and get to lvl 100 before you start out, and Zelda, where if you don't have the next hot item, no amount of running around hitting things is going to get you past the next dungeon, so get to it! Actually Zelda has an out, it has rupees and things you can buy with them, but before I ever saw it I saw Alundra on the PS2 which was totally hardcore like that, and stunned me when I first realised.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:31 (eighteen years ago) link
Players can always impose rogueishness on a game, through speed runs/initial equipment/etc.
This is humans for you, give them something to do and they'll organize and innovate on it.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:42 (eighteen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 2 November 2005 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 28 November 2005 00:25 (eighteen years ago) link
zing
― TOMBOT, Monday, 28 November 2005 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link
Who knows; maybe generation algorithms have improved in 12 years.
― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 28 November 2005 03:37 (eighteen years ago) link
Also, has anyone found a better interface for nethack -- isometric or 3d? I'm sick of the awful OS X keybindings....
― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Monday, 28 November 2005 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 28 November 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Monday, 28 November 2005 18:13 (eighteen years ago) link
― We Are the Dregs of the Motherfucking Earth (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 03:22 (eighteen years ago) link
LucasArts Desktop Adventures roffle
― adam (adam), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 03:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 06:51 (eighteen years ago) link
I think you can polymorph into burrowing monsters.
― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Friday, 6 January 2006 21:01 (eighteen years ago) link