David Fincher -- c/d?

morbius i am consistently otm everywhere i go

'the movie doesn't endorse their viewpoint' is the oldest apologist trick in the book -- viz a viz kubrick fans claiming for thirty years that a clockwork orange doesn't endorse alex despite the fact that he's glamorous and cool and charismatic and everyone else in the movie is portrayed as ugly and square.

"Tyler, I appreciate everything you've done for me, but this is too much." it's right in the dialogue, brahs.

the cult's Iron Johnish myth is just one more sales pitch, the narrator comes to realize

ummm really. is that why he shoots himself in the face.

that said i kinda like fight club, but dirty harry prob dealt with the same issues a lot more coherently.

i have no idea what the book is like, for the record

the movie wanted to have its outlaw character win, so revolution it is, bombs away. but it had the typical hollywood allergy to real politics, so the motivation gets chalked up to male depression and office drone uselessness, not any kind of program. that's just nuts, it's like, you do realize that people have blown up the state and taken over, in the 20th century, a couple times?

if it's not endorsing their view it's at least holding them up as a potentiality to fear, which is pretty congratulatory, in a way -- falling down redux?

deeznuts stfu and learn to read

many xps

I mean come on escaping a destructive cult by an act of self-mutilation, how is that not completely nihilistic

x-post

in fact, i'd say it's pretty touching that the movie suggests that, you know, real human love and connection (the image of them holding hands as the world collapses all around them) is the only salvation in the materialist hell portrayed at the beginning of the film.

frankly a better revolutionary ending would have calm and fair minded public employees figure out what was going on, capture him and lock him up.

^^^^lolz

"it had the typical hollywood allergy to real politics, so the motivation gets chalked up to male depression and office drone uselessness, not any kind of program. that's just nuts"

wtf goole??

xp ok this man is a troll

also, Brad Pitt will never be that motherfucking hot again.

The film and book aren't particularly interested in 'real' politics.

escaping a destructive cult by an act of self-mutilation

Shakey, you know I luv ya, but cmon, that face-shooting bit is totally in la-la land, making it way clear by then that it's likely a symbolic act / fantasy to rid himself of the alterego.

'the movie doesn't endorse their viewpoint' is the oldest apologist trick in the book

it's also pretty much true, not only for this movie but for a lot of movies from the past 100 years or so. some movies have speeches about how bad these shitty characters are, and some just kind of show how shitty they are and expect you to be smart enough to figure that out yourself.

I think i would agree that FC drops the ball on any potential political readings...there is a bit of incoherence on that front. One might say it is nihilistic because it DOES seem to me to recoil from any political statement. maybe that's cowardice, maybe it's saying that there sincere limits to the political.

real human love and connection (the image of them holding hands as the world collapses all around them) is the only salvation in the materialist hell portrayed at the beginning of the film.

except that, you know, the implication is that mass murder and property destruction on a grand scale were required for them to reach that completely banal rom-com conclusion

well, yeah! it's a funny movie.

IT'S ONE MAN'S DERANGED FANTASY

OFTEN MATCHING UP WITH MINE

on another point, i don't think we should use the subsequent popularity of "alex" halloween costumes and the real-life fight clubs as something indicative of anything other than people "not getting it".

that face-shooting bit is totally in la-la land, making it way clear by then that it's likely a symbolic act / fantasy to rid himself of the alterego.

I guess - pretty nihilistic symbolism going on there nonetheless (not to mention lovingly shot and made as grotesque as possible)

there are sincere lols to be had! i love the cop banging on the door when marla threatens suicide. "you have every reason to live!"

some movies have speeches about how bad these shitty characters are, and some just kind of show how shitty they are and expect you to be smart enough to figure that out yourself.

so is 'scarface' meant to be taken as a sober cautionary story about how you shouldn't be violent and snort coke?

"limits to the political" is some terrible stuff, btw -- there are things we can do about the credit card companies, you know, short of dynamiting their buildings. grow up!

i wonder why parents ever worried about their kids playing 'mortal kombat' -- it's really about how shitty it would be if all you had to do was fight all day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnBJBaHbwak&feature=related

guys if you think about it really deeply, zodiac & se7en kind of encourage serial killing by glamorizing it

"No, I'm fine" (gluglug, choking back blood)

I'm sure you all like The Godfather for different reasons than the Sopranos did. Or not!

no i just mean that sometimes there is not a political solution to the "perils of existence." why i quoted huxley. life kinda sucks and the best "political" solutions often fail to deliver on their utopian promises.

"some just kind of show how shitty they are and expect you to be smart enough to figure that out yourself"

Right-o.

"guys if you think about it really deeply, zodiac & se7en kind of encourage serial killing by glamorizing it"

You don't have to think deeply at all.

yeah fair enough, ryan

it's all good. fun movie to argue about.

You don't have to think deeply at all.

-- Alex in SF

zactly

okay I can now no longer parse who's being ironic and who's not on this thread

I'm not being ironic. It's not hard to imagine serial killer movies serving as templates for serial killers.

ok, serious q shakey - do you have a problem with zodiac & se7en for glamorizing serial killing?

SERIOUS Q

Um there are differences between those two movies ya know.

please stop responding to deeznuts

I mean Zodiac has a couple of flaws, but comparing it to a piece of hackwork garbage like Seven (fuck putting the 7 in the middle) does it a grave disservice.

I have a problem with se7en being a boring serial killer movie. Zodiac is a completely different animal, and has waaaaaay more going on in it. Although for the record I don't think the serial killer is particularly "glamorized" in Zodiac (certainly not the way Spacey is in se7en; search ILE thread I started about "stupid superhuman serial killer movies")

but in general I agree with Alex on this point

many xposts - No mass murder involved - the buildings they blow up are staffed by Fight Club janitors and evacuated, right?

I don't think the critics are giving Fight Club enough credit for criticizing itself and offering up a complicated POV. Tyler's ideology is sold extremely well (and has some merit from a modern progressive view - "to let that which does not truly matter slide" etc.), and has to be balanced with the fact it becomes a fascist death cult. By turning the anti-commercial/culture jam deal into a violent terrorist cell, does the movie (or book) repudiate all the ideas from the first third? That lack of a coherent political argument is basically the point, no?

in fact, i'd say it's pretty touching that the movie suggests that, you know, real human love and connection (the image of them holding hands as the world collapses all around them) is the only salvation in the materialist hell portrayed at the beginning of the film.

Zodiac made for a nice five-hour nap.

yeah, he's not glamorized, he's a fat balding piece of shit who works in a hardware store & lives in a trailer

im not sure how many copycats weve seen since the release of se7en but im guessing the answer is zero

max, stfu

xps

zodiac was totally fantastic, seven is pretty boring and stupid. i'm pretty glad andrew kevin walker dropped off the map after awhile.

i got weirdly obsessed with zodiac and probably watched in 5 days in a row. so i may be overrating it. but, for me anyway, there is some incredibly moving and profound stuff poking around under the surface of that (gorgeous) movie.

in fact i kind of agree with the notion that the only 2 good movies DF has made were fight club and zodiac, though there are certainly good things about seven and A3 despite them both being kind of retarded.

still haven't seen zodiac, but everyone either loved it or said it was murky and up its own ass, so it should be right up my alley

zodiac was kind of his first 'serious' movie, maybe a precursor to benjamin button

but the things i remember most strongly from zodiac, & what appeals most to me in benjamin button (based on the trailer) are the cinematic set-pieces & images - like the end of fight club - & i think that & not character development is finchers strength & always has been, tho i salute him for branching out

if youre looking for movies to make your political points for you youre an idiot

thinking about the politics of a movie is not "looking for a movie to make political points for you"