Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.

"30 Seconds Over Tokyo" to thread

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.
That's a great example

Melwyn - 'we all slow down' from farbrausch 64k demo Life Index (>WinXp)
which is "actually a 19/4 beat, just mixed to normal 4/4 form."

Fresh Moods - lifechange

Dr Faustus does this to me everytime I hear it

Underworld - Jumbo
XTC - The Smartest Monkeys

Wow, that Radiohead, you have no idea the downbeat isn't where you think it is until way into the song.

"Tell Me Something Good" most def.

With "Bodysnatchers", are you guys counting each snare as an "&" in a slow-to-moderate 4/4? That kind of works for me.

uhm, not with you on that one. i hear each snare on 2 and 4 as every other rock song, although the intro still puts you off a bit at first

^yep

I mean, your way is the normal way of counting it. But if you look at it the other way, it accounts for the riff and the phrasing in the vocal melody. For the sake of argument, you know.

This is my favorite example in the whole world.

The big chords are easily heard as being on "1" and "3", but they're really on the "and of 2" and "and of 4" (in a few spots, a four-on-the-floor kick/bass pattern appears, to confirm this)

I suppose if you listen regularly to Zouk, you're more likely to expect accents on the offbeats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWE51n6GDcM

Listened again (radiohead)and this time there was no shift, except maybe at the beginning. I guess I got off-track the first time. Huh. Maybe I'll get to the bottom of it later, I gotta go make dinner.

Oops, not "The Smartest Monkeys" -- the XTC song I had in mind was (the vastly superior) "Wake Up"

Actually, another radiohead example would be "Videotape", from the same album. The plodding piano chords from the entire song turn out to be on the off-beat by the end.

I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I09xjQgMAI

311 thought they were so fucking clever about this that they named their song "Offbeat Bare Ass"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G9-pHd9CyQ

I Don't Remember - Peter Gabriel

Certainly the live version does this, can't remember if the studio version does.

Timbaland, "Give It To Me"

daftendirekt always throws me

Pete Townshend - "Keep on Working" vs. The Kinks - "Set Me Free" - Both songs begin with the same guitar riff, but the downbeats come in at different places so that one riff is actually a kind of inside out version of the other. I knew the Townshend song first, so the Kinks song throws me every time.

The beginning of "Come on Down to My Boat" by Every Mother's Son.

Grateful Dead-the Eleven

Basement Jaxx - Supersonic

downbeat doesn't drop until 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

'rock your world' has always been weird to me, i want to hear the bass line starting on the other side of the phrase (ie on the 3) even though i know that's not right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

Oh goodness, the chorus of "Diamond Dogs" switches the kick to an offbeat and it throws everything off in a strange way.

I also used to hear the intro to "Girl U Want" as having the first beat on the third note of the opening riff (as if the *first* note was on 4). When the drums came in it would confound.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcKZ2U8FHs&feature=player_embedded

The into to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" gets me every time. Intellectually I know they're echoing the syncopation of the "I can't hide" part, but that's not how I hear it.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

i don't think so, it's just playing a part that doesn't start on the 1, without any kind of rhythm section context to it.

The closest I can get is "pickup note(s)".

Musicians, you are letting me down. Pro Wrestlers would have named this trick right quick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_note

also known as "anacrusis"

But that will just throw you off for less than a bar until you hear that first downbeat. I liked Jordan's explanation about the lack of rhythm section context.

i think it's called "offbeat bare ass"

One time in 1994 I heard "Sabotage" on the wrong beat right when Ill Communication came out and it was awesome, but that never happened again

" lack of rhythm section context."

the rhythmless intro is different from the riff that follows.

like here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkhhLC1tf8

it's the same in that nirvana example you posted

no they are different
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo (in intro)
versus
doo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo doo (in main)
or something like that, might be missing a dee or doo somewhere

You gotta trust me man duck tales is hella math rock.

nah i think you're getting fooled. the riff starts with a pickup note, so the first "doo" is the pickup and the second "doo" is the 1. if you start counting in the right place at the beginning, the riff doesn't change when the bass & drums come in.

The Cars' "Just What I Needed" is like a perfect example of this. You almost have no choice but to count it all wrong until the vocal and the hi-hat come in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hwE0slNd3Y

I look forward to the great duck tales debate going for pages and pages!

it starts off:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

this repeats as the doooo naaaaa naaa noooo part comes underneath

but when the rhythm track comes in:
doh doo dee da | doh doo dee da | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee

i was talking about the nirvana song!

"You Really Got Me" by the Kinks threw me the first time I heard it, but it's such a memorable and ubiquitous tune that I never had the opportunity to enjoy the effect again...try as I might.

I seem to remember writing an analysis essay of a Mozart sonata that REALLY fucked around with this sort of thing: not only did it give a false impression of the time signature, but the key as well (major for minor, or vice-versa), and the resolution was delayed until well into the first bar-proper. Clever bugger, that Mozart. Beethoven messes with the beat at length in many of his sonatas, but I definitely wasn't paying attention in that class.

I'm always thrown by "Walking on the Moon" by the Police in this regard. There's also a bunch of Genesis songs but I cant think of any examples off the top of my head.

"Walking on the Moon" OTM. That song has absolutely one of the most fucked-up drum parts of any song ever.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

Syncopation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gwbXjHNcwA

'Little Secret' by Passion Pit, just before the second verse

"Lost In Music" always gives me a little double take, which is part of the pleasure imo - it's like 'the pocket' is so deep in this song, the pocket has a pocket of its own

dl I have "played" on this many times by accidentally lining the records up on the off-beat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroXhI2uZs

Ahhh, that makes sense re: Valkyries. I've always heard the 1st way but the 2nd way makes sense.

Dog latin - same.

I don't really get the Sister Sledge thing because the beat is so strong. But I have a hard time hearing the intro to Rufus & Chaka 'Tell Me Something Good' correctly, with the wah wah keys on the downbeat and the bass on the upbeat.

catches me off guard every time it finally "snaps into place" on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZvikbX7RA

I must admit, when I listen to Valkyries, I only hear it Wagner's way-- the chords are also changing on the downbeat

That said, had you asked me to sit down at the piano and play it, prior to "just now", when I rewatched/relistened, I would've absolutely weighted it (and had the chords change) as you've described in your 2nd example, B'wana Beast. Interesting

Also wild to hear how John Williams's whole "heroic" mode contains all these orchestral devices

"No Reply At All" doesn't belong on this thread but having seen "Keep It Dark" mentioned here I relistened to both it the former and, well, the album Abacab slaps

*both it and the former

I think Phil Collins must've been fond of this downbeat trick, because the verses in "Dance on a Volcano" do a similar thing.

I have two of these:

Amazing Journey by The Who - The opening always fools me that the downbeat is on the first chord of each pair, when in fact it is the second chord (one and a half beats later). Daltrey also starts singing on the downbeat, but it doesn't become clear to me until the drums come in. Maybe the backwards feedback over the intro is also misleading.

Mechanical World by Spirit - I only figured out tonight that the downbeat in the verses is on the third hi-hat hit, not the first, which was misleading me completely. The whole song is in straight 4/4 if you count it properly!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Theo's "Bubbles", too

When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk

re: "Lost in Music" - great example!
also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4

maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.

Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?

re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ

i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?

oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM

almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording

Yes! Considered that

The intro to SOS feels like it begins on the 2, but if you're going to count straight fours until the vocal comes in right after the 1, then it starts on the 3! Or you could say that the intro drops a beat before the vocal comes in.

There is a great Switched on Pop episode about Charlie Puth's "Boy" that talks about its "downbeat deception." Listen to the first 10 minutes of this:

https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/87-the-pure-pop-of-charlie-puth-carly-rae-ft-hanif-abdurraqib

Here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILJvqrAQ_w

That's a good one, although the backbeat coming in helpfully lines it up.

Just relistened to that Switched on Pop and if you go to minute 16 they also play a bunch of examples of what they dub downbeat deception:

Ismael Miranda – Recordando
The Beatles – She’s a Woman
Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings – Nobody’s Baby
The Cars – Since You’re Gone
Ludwig van Beethoven – Symphony No 5 in C Minor, I

Is there a thread for rap songs with raps on the off-beat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_QcvPwa-l0

Jane Weaver - Electric Mountain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lcFq7Rtx0M

I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.

(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)