Every child in America entering school at the age of five is insane

way to ad hominem the argument, dude, but you still haven't explained why "a lot has changed" to the degree that the idea of emphasizing civic education over fking job training is uselessly outdated. x-post

thats, uh, not what becker is saying

i also dont really have any fucking clue what "civic education" means

Is anyone actually arguing that US/Cdn high schools are doing enough to challenge and engage academic-track students? I can't tell. That was my basic gripe. I'm not an expert on or an educator in the high school system so I don't really have a well-devised programme laid out for how to reform the curriculum. (moonship, you're a high school teacher IIRC?) I just have a feeling that more could be done in some key areas and have memories of being bored and unengaged. I'm kind of throwing things out there wrt more specific suggestions.

I'll drop the citation format thing since people have focused on that one point rather than the others concerning e.g. basic grammar, writing coherently, the possibility that 16-17-year-old Gifted students could stand to read 5 books in a year rather than 3 and might not read every word read aloud in class, the idea that people could stand to be better informed about world issues and some of the most basic ideas that have shaped them, the idea that maybe people should come out of public school music courses able to sing a major third and perfect fifth (I can do this BTW but it wasn't until grad school in music that someone sat me down and made me learn it really solidly.)

I think it would be worthwhile for academic-track students graduating from Canadian high schools to be able to easily e.g. explain what the Geneva Convention is, summarize the basic differences between the Cdn and US systems of government, name some of the major accomplishments of Rene Levesque, or discuss one of the major anti-colonial movements of the 20th century in cursory depth. I don't think high school is useless in this regard but I think there's more it could do. Not J.D. but this would be part of my concept of civic education.

I'll read the Becker when I get a moment.

Anyway, I better stay away from this thread before I screw up my current education!

I never let school threads interfere with my education.

I never let school threads interfere with my education.

basic grammar, writing coherently, the possibility that 16-17-year-old Gifted students could stand to read 5 books in a year rather than 3 and might not read every word read aloud in class, the idea that people could stand to be better informed about world issues and some of the most basic ideas that have shaped them

i think more people *can* write coherently than ever before!

but why 5 rather than 3? why not read every word aloud?

should we discuss here the probably detrimental aspects of all parents having to work? since we're bringing up preschooling

we try not to because 1) educators don't like people telling them how to teach, so we don't want to tell people how to parent and 2) that line of argument very quickly ends up (like many, many historical arguments in education) disproportionately blaming poor parents, black parents, latino parents, immigrant parents.

B-b-but Sundar, when did you learn to sing a tritone?

Was that your yearbook quote, Laurel?

I can't believe you guys' weak ass reading requirements in high school
I took the "gifted" english in HS and we had to go through 6-7 books in SUMMER, then another seven or eight over the course of the school year

made me hate hemingway and faulkner, I can tell you that

Perfect training for an interweb hardman.

i actually would love to teach or take an english class were we focused, in serious depth, on a single book for an entire semester or even an entire year

ok, the book is

ETHAN FROME

have fun

lol

thats, uh, not what becker is saying

i was responding to your "a lot has changed" remark, not becker.

i also dont really have any fucking clue what "civic education" means

here's a hint: ask any kid why they're going to school, and chances are they'll respond "to get a better job." if this were actually the purpose of school, any private company could do it better; as i've said, the only defensible purpose of public schools is to give future citizens a strong, rounded education - in science, in the arts, in history, whatever - in order to allow them to participate in public life. once you start thinking "why should we be teaching calculus to future construction workers?" you've totally lost sight of what public schools are for.

calculus helps people become better citizens and participate in public life?

I know we've done this like three hundred times already, but the idea of public jr high and high schools teaching kids anything positive/productive about group dynamics and civilization and constructive socialization is hilarious to me.

every person between the ages of 14 and 20 should be given part-time jobs and allowed to spend the rest of their time smoking and having sex. then when you turn twenty you go to a five-year combination high school/college program and graduate with a degree.

OTM, and xpost also OTM

http://www.fys.uio.no/~hkippe/gifer/crazy_mouse.gif

and chances are they'll respond "to get a better job." if this were actually the purpose of school, any private company could do it better

is this actually true, though? don't a lot of jobs presuppose that you come prepared with things you learned in high school? i mean, "to get a better job" you could teach kids how to talk, how to present themselves, how to dress, some job skills, etc etc

there's a lot of stuff that goes into getting a job, but school works one part (basic cognitive skills) and i wonder whether a private company could do a better job of it.

I was SO BORED with the insane easiness and busywork in fourth grade that I would spend hours trying to pull out my remaining teeth for a reason to get out of class for 15 minutes.