Blue Note. Classic Or Dud?

As for blue note reissues, they do a good job except that they sometimes have the alternate takes in the middle, which sucks, and some of their reissues are part of a series called conniessuer (sp?) and are hard to find. I have been looking to find Pete La Roca Sims' "Basra" for a long time with no success.

Blue Note, in its original operative stages, was easily classic, and it remained as such until the late 60s. During the early and mid 60s, Blue Note carefully balanced its output between hard bop/soul jazz, and avant garde music. Towards the late 60s, the label started to emphasize the former at the the expense of the latter, and their timing could not have been further off the mark, as avant garde jazz grew slightly more popular during the heyday of the "counterculture".

From what I understand, certain periods in the 70s and 80s saw Blue Note either closed or in the hands of indifferent parent labels, or just reeling from corporate mergers.

I am not sure what year Blue Note came back completely, but since then, it is seemingly doing quite well. The Norah Jones album has helped a lot, and, even though many hardcore jazzheads might not like Norah Jones, her album finances reissues of old classics.

That being said, I do have a few gripes, but they are mostly due to the marketplace, and not gripes with Blue Note itself. The marekt right now is for hard bop, and a lot of brilliant releases are sitting in the blue note archives because they are not commercial enough. For instance, I love "Point of Departure" by Andrew Hill, but his other realeases have not been given recent remasters or re-releases, save for the Conn. editions of *some* of his albums, which are limited releases that go out of print quickly, and are quite expensive at arount $17 versus the Rudy Van Gelder remasters, which sell for aroun $11-12.

Other great inside-outside (meaning usually hard-bop influenced by modal music and avant garde playing) artists besides from the Blue Note catalog are Joe Henderson, Sam Rivers, Lee Morgan, Jackie McClean, Bobby Hutcherson, and Grachan Moncur III. Most of these artists are more famous for their more straightforward sessions, but they could all play convincingly in freer styles.

Among those artists listed, the degree to which their albums are available varies widely. Joe Henderson's 4 releases for BN during the sixties are all available, whereas none of Sam Rivers' are. Lee Morgan's Hard Bop records are mostly all available, while his more advanced recording can be more difficult to find. This applies to Jackie McClean, Bobby Hutcherson and Andrew Hill as well, though the latter two recorded less hard bop material, I think (since so many of these realeases are unavailable, I am going by what limited amounts I have heard and the reviews I have read.

Grachan Moncur III only released a couple of dates as a leader, both are supposed to be amazing, but both are difficult to track down. "Evolution" has not been released recently, except as an expensive Japanese import, and "Some Other Stuff" was released as a Conn. edition, and is now out of print. Mosaic, the specialty division of Blue Note, is planning on releasing these two albums, along with some McClean material, as a box set under Moncur's name. The box will be limited addition, and, if I remember correctly, will be only available through Mosaic for its first year of existence. This highlights some of the problems of jazz reissue programs.

Mosaic, for those who don't know, is a jazz label that specializes in very thorough re-releases of classic material in box form. In many cases, the complete output of a particular artist for a paticular label is released, with all tracks in order of session recording. All of Mosaic's outpt is limited edition. This is very frustrating, as the out-of-print boxes can command very high prices on the used market. When two factors, the expense of the used box sets, the out of print status of the single-disc albums, combine, the frustration of being a jazz lover intensifies. In the case of Sam Rivers, for instance, the Mosaic box is har to find, and, as I said, NONE of his Bleu Note albums are in print! Going back to the Moncur box, my frustration with a project like that (and this sometimes applies to other Mosaic boxes) is that I don't like situations in which albums originally released as being under the leadership of one artist are transeferred to the leadership of another. I would be much happier if McLean's dates stayed as his.

The Mosaic boxes and Blue Note Connoisseur editions, whether on purpose or inadvertanly, work to reinforce the idea of jazz as an elitist music. Even though the quality of the repackaging is increidbly high, easily equaling any reissue program extant, these special editions end up serving as gimmicks, as they work solely to work fanatics into a state of anxiousness, and don't even bother engaging with the casual or intermediate listener. As a result, a wall is created between casual and deadicated listeners, and the sales of those records never increases, as there only seem to be enough copies of any given title to satisfy the deadicated.

I realize the realities of business in contemporary society, and I know that it would be difficult and expensive for Blue Note and other labels to keep more of their titles in print, but even with all of my complaints, I remain patient and optimistic.

I grew up in CT, so I am very familiar with Dunkin Donuts coffee, sadly unavailable here in SF. It may be the greatest ever. And so addictive it may as well be liquid crack. People that visually compare the cheap, old-school Dunkin Donuts stores to the luxe of Starbucks or (the admitedly good) Peets would probably dismiss Dunkin Donuts coffee out of hand before tasting it... and that may be a good thing. Once you've had it you're hooked. Can anyone in the orbit of a Dunkin Donuts confirm this please!

Also, Impulse is a good label.

TMFTML
http://intonation.blogspot.com

what are the best known hard bop albums?
i'm not entirely sure what is meant by it

Some worthwhile releases in the RVG series:
Hard Bop, Soul Bop, Post-Bop (advanced non-avant garde):
Lee Morgan, The Sidewinder
Art Blakey, Moanin' (the absolute classic Hard Bop record!)
Wayne Shorter, Speak No Evil
McCoy Tyner, Real McCoy
Sonny Rollins, Night at the Village Vanguard (2CD)
Miles Davis, Volumes 1 & 2
Hank Mobley, Soul Station

Inside-Outside:
Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
Eric Dophy, Out to Lunch
Bobby Hutcherson, Dialogue

There are many more great releases, but these will all serve as good introductions, I think, and they are ALL RVG, so all are affordable and recently remastered.

dave q so off the mark as usual

The Blue Note Spotify App might be the greatest thing ever. Wow. You can view every album they ever released in an "itunes" style album cover flow, and obviously listen to them all...seeing all that music in sequence is just staggering, plus all the great album art...also they ahve good bio info and session info for each one.

damn.

sorry i know it's just a spotify app but i get so used to taking technology for granted and then every once in a while it hits me like I HAVE UNLIMITED ACCESS TO EVERY FUCKING BLUE NOTE ALBUM EVER RELEASED WITH ART WORK AND INFO???? fucking christ

i mean what, god a $50K record collection probably?

i'll have to check it out, sounds fun.
original question or this thread seems a little off-base "Or Hard Bop/Soul Jazz vs Free/Avant Garde?"
Blue Note was pretty supportive of the avant garde in the mid 60s -- andrew hill, dolphy, hutcherson, henderson, tony williams. i mean, they were doing those releases at the same time as the sidewinder or whatevs, but they weren't ignoring the more progressive stuff.

also blue note existed before free jazz even existed so i don't see why it's being set up as a battle.......

that rules! do they give u an option for mono?

wow this app thingy is great

yeah it's amazing

haha don't think they have a mono button....could you do that through your computer sound settings or maybe spotify?

listening to a cecil taylor free jazz record on this app right now! take that!

is that the same? i thought they were mixed differently, not just channel-shunted...

ANYWAY WHOCARES THIS IS REALLY COOL!

sometimes i think it's a little silly to get all label fetish-y but then i see a bunch of blue notes and they're like these beautiful objects.

yeah just browsing thru the album art in order is kind of a cool way to see the evolution of graphic design from the late 30s thru the 60s....though it gets kind of dispiriting in the late 70s, just turns to shit for a long time....

yeah there should probably be a thread for unfortunate 70s jazz album art.

my recs for y'all:
unit structures
conquistador!
compulsion!!!
out to lunch (DUH)
evolution
some other stuff
destination OUT
NOW!
empyrean isles
components (side 2)
point of departure
of love and peace
contrasts
UNITY
right now!
time for tyner
all three don cherrys
expansions

unit structures
^the very record i am listening to

yeah Larry Young - UNITY is super awesome. Ornette's Blue Note stuff is great too! At least those Golden Circle recs are up there with his best stuff.

Into Somethin' is great, too: Larry, Elvin, Grant Green, and (!) Sam Rivers. Oh yeah, and Sam's Fucshia Swing Song is unbelievable.

And Bobby Hutcherson's Dialogue and Joe Henderson's Our Thing and and and and

<3 dialogue yeah

b-side of components is all these DARK UNMOORED amazing joe chambers compositions -- i highly recommend that shit

compulsion is one of the craziest fukn albums ever too -- thats a pretty good counterexample to the "blue note is boring" trope

i'm still trying to get my head around those andrew hill records.

cecil mcbee, john gilmore, and like, everyone is so ANGRY-SOUNDING!

oh and BREAKING POINT thats a good one!

my friend told me that basically every 60s record that james spaulding appears on is worth hearing. havent heard em all yet, but he's batting 1000 so far...

man im so glad u revived this m@tt!

me too!

listening to Unity by Larry Young...this is great...feels kinda like Miles in the Sky but I've never really liked Miles in the Sky because it feels kinda remote and lifeless to me.

this is better

agreed!

larry young took a couple listens for me, tbh, cause the b3 has a certain aesthetic context that im feelin at the moment, but of love and peace brought it back for me on the strength of two drummers!

i'm still trying to get my head around those andrew hill records.

Hill could do no wrong. I think you can still get the Mosaic Select set of his which is all unreleased Blue Note-era stuff, and features him with a string quartet, playing the organ, and playing soprano saxophone. Very nearly as good as his best Blue Note records.

wowowowow this is on my list now but yeesh http://collectorsfrenzy.com/details/110467186572

never gotten a mosaic box, but i want the andrew, grachan, and jackie mclean ones

I'm 97% sure all the Hill stuff on that box is available on the individual CDs now. All the albums were eventually reissued once the box went out of print.

whoa thank you for bringing this to my attention

the breakbeats section!

yeah, spotify has generally opened up a lot of new 60s blue note material for me, because back when I was in my first phase of fiending for that stuff it was pretty much whatever limited reissues were available at the time. Lately I've been catching up on all the Jackie McLean and Andrew Hill stuff.

ATM I'm listening to Judgment!

I love hearing Elvin Jones on Blue Note since I'm mostly used to his sound on Impulse -- it's so much wetter and bigger here.

It is! Ditto Tony Williams Blue Note vs. Columbia.

man but tony on columbia (and verve) is no sucker either

None of those guys sound bad on any label (Roy Haynes too). But I love the 60s Blue Note sound.

Weird that Elvin sounds different on Blue Note than on Impulse; same engineer, same studio.

idk, maybe it was Alfred Lion's influence?

Possibly...but maybe playing with Trane necessitated different mic placement or something.

there are a lot of blue note LPs available on reissues in the 10-12 dollar range, anyone know how the vinyl sounds? is it crap?

Possibly...but maybe playing with Trane necessitated different mic placement or something.

― 5-Hour Enmity (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, September 21, 2012 7:54 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^my thought too

omar, the new reissues are either scorpio (so shitty) or the insane 2LP $80 list price special remasters of just a few records. for my money, the older the better, but i like all the pressings through the end of the 70s. some ppl probably swear by the DMMs, too, but i like it a little warmer...

yeah i had 'unity' on LP and was disappointed, so it was probably a scorpio reissue. i see 'point of departure' and 'out to lunch' and other classic joints in the $10 range, i should probably just dig around for older pressings.

ill keep my eyes peeled for you -- i generally buy anything cheap and pre-80s on blue note, either to keep or sell. ill come to you first :)

The Spotify app was developed by my friend's company; he's super chuffed at all the feedback. Not a jazz fan, though!

thank u sir, see you on 'desperately selling'~

my recs for y'all:
unit structures
conquistador!
compulsion!!!
out to lunch (DUH)
evolution
some other stuff
destination OUT
NOW!
empyrean isles
components (side 2)
point of departure
of love and peace
contrasts
UNITY
right now!
time for tyner
all three don cherrys
expansions

― 69, Friday, September 21, 2012 12:56 PM (4 hours ago)

This looks like a poem

Like William Shatner and some bongos poetry

Possibly...but maybe playing with Trane necessitated different mic placement or something.

― 5-Hour Enmity (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, September 21, 2012 7:54 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It could be that, but I remember reading that the Lions were kind of particular about their sound, and other drummers sound bigger and wetter on Blue Note too. Still, it would make sense that drumming would need to be slightly drier to leave space for coltrane. Not that the impulse sound is dry, but it's a little more controlled than Blue Note.

yeah i imagine van gelder would adjust his engineering style slightly depending on whether it was bob thiele / creed taylor / alfred lion in the studio. i think those guys probably all had different conceptions of what a jazz LP should sound like.

The Spotify app was developed by my friend's company; he's super chuffed at all the feedback. Not a jazz fan, though!

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, September 21, 2012 5:14 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The app gives me hope for what the streaming experience can be in a post-physical-album world.

Yeah this is the most bad-ass thing. I haven't ever even clicked on a spotify app or cared about any of it. This is v eye opening.

this is the best one i've seen by a large margin

another one i'd recommend -- and it's way more "homemade" seeming than this -- is Ulysses' Classical...just because he makes really cool playlists and blog posts...but it's more Spotify playlist enabled blog within spotify than something as ambitious as the Blue Note one

i think those guys probably all had different conceptions of what a jazz LP should sound like.

I learned yesterday that Sun Ship wasn't recorded at Van Gelder's studio (or engineered by Van Gelder), and nothing in its' sound suggests otherwise. So yeah, I guess Thiele had more to do with the sound of the records than I'd previously thought (because I previously thought he left it entirely up to Van Gelder).

Cool, will check that xp. Thanks.

gentlemen: the Spotify app in question is neither available on the app store nor findable on my ipad--what am I doing wrong?

Here you go:

http://open.spotify.com/app/bluenote

aha! apps don't exist on iPad/Pod, which are the only version I've used for months know....good to know. thanks for the link!

somebody needs to set up a "greatest Blue Note" cover poll....

hmmm
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb30k1add71r3sdivo1_500.png

those are really boring cover photos, no offense to barrack

barack (d'oh)

the joe henderson PAGE ONE takeoff is good in the montage

and the sidewinder one is ok too

Downloaded Art Blakey's Indestructible (his last Blue Note album, from 1965, with Lee Morgan, Curtis Fuller, Wayne Shorter, Cedar Walton and Reggie Workman) and the two volumes of 3 Blind Mice (live stuff from 1962 with Freddie Hubbard, Fuller, Shorter, Walton and Jymie Merritt). There are days when all I want to listen to, ever, is Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers' stuff from 1960-65.

I have been loving Pete La Roca's awesome Basra album a lot recently. It is a travesty that such a talented dude fucked it all off and became a taxi driver.

Dud mostly. The less rhythmic propulsion a track has, the more likely the track title will be an intransitive verb with a dropped 'g'.
― dave q, Monday, August 12, 2002 7:00 PM (13 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol great dave q post

RIP RVG
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CquV540VMAAQBHy.jpg

I picked up a great book of lp covers from the label from a cheap sale a few years ago.
They really did have a great sense of style.
Seems to have been a major influence on mod. Presumably the modern jazz that's initially a short form for was best epitomised by the record label.

RIP Rudy Van Gelder

humans will be listening to some of those tracks as long as the species has electrical power

.. must have at least 8 or 12 of the RVG remasters on disc -- will need to dig them out

Finally got around to watching 'Blue Note: Beyond the Notes' last night. It's nice and pleasant but didn't really contain much in the way of insights that any fan wasn't already familiar with. Highlight was watching Shorter & Hancock goof around. I could have gone for a lot more of that.