"OK Computer" vs. "Mechanical Animals"

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Oh, but Radiohead's use of Delay throughout OK COMPUTER just swirls my braiN!

Brave Ulysses, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Setting up an interview as your straw man is really fucking weak.

Melissa W, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, I love 'Kid A'! But that's not what this thread's about. 'Kid A' I play every other week or so, 'OKC' I never want to hear ever again.

dave q, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

You were taking a Kid A era interview to knock down OK Computer? No matter what, that was weak.

Melissa W, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

FITE!

This is a great question and I adore both albums quite a lot. For that reason it's hard for me to decide -- I think I would have an equal propensity to listen to both at this stage. The 136 list ranked OKC higher for me, but now I just see them as both very accomplished records. Certainly Mechanical Animals remains Manson's high point, the spot where he started letting his arrangements take a multitude of different directions. Since Radiohead (to my ears) kept getting better after OKC, I guess I'll take MA as the better individual achievement.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Certainly Mechanical Animals remains Manson's high point...

Nuh-uh. No way. Mechanical Animals is (to these ears) where MM started to flounder--reaching too far for ideas/inspiration etc. It sounds good but you can see the chinks in his armor (the gospel choir trick will work exactly once, the plastic- boob joke wears thin). Plus I think David Bowie sucks so jacking ideas from him is not good.

Manson's high point is Portrait of an American Family. Probably my favorite metal album of the 90s. The band is faceless and competent (the "classic" line-up, too-- no Twiggy etc), he's just getting the hang of that cliched rasp, and he's going all-out with the Evil but in a (relatively) tongue-in- cheek camping-it-up manner. I mean, I know he's always got the camp thing going on but with Antichrist Superstar it was too dark and with Mechanical Animals it's too glossy. (Holy Wood is just bad.)

Portrait... plays with all the early-MM silliness (Wonka, serial killers, corruption-of-children--you know, cartoon Goth) without succumbing to it. It's, um, OF Satan, not ABOUT Satan. It's EC Comics as opposed to Anton LaVey.

Apologies if this post is completely incomprehensible, I have a blueberry wine hangover.

adam, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Hmm, well since I'm feeling chatty I'll keep posting to my own thread and say that I could not stand a second of Marilyn Manson's music until "Mechanical Animals".

Same here. I had MM chalked up as a sad 10th generation gawth metaller. I guess I didn't really get his schtick til "Dope Show".

Nicole, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

portrait also has patti smith cover and cake and sodomy ! woohoooooo

yum

Queen G, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

They are both wank.

Kevin Sundance, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Manson is far better than radiohead. I don't actually care for both and have only heard tracks on the radio (though i have borrowed OKC from my record library and have heard tracks from Kid A).

Radiohead are worse because they got tired of their job. That is to write songs. At least manson likes rock and keeps to it (his riffs are not good enough though and his lyrics are designed to seek attention- he easily gets it, of course!).

That Radiohead interview was shit. Their act has to be believed, really. These guys start by writing shit songs. They get rich. They then get bored of it (when they realize there's loads of music out there). As they've sold loads, they are given licence by their record company to 'experiment' (very loose description here).

These are the sort of people who like Miles davis mid-70s albums (rather than comedy records that were designed to sell more). They believe that Talk Talk's 'Spirit of Eden' is an incredible record (Mark Hollis' really feels, doesn't he, just listen to those vocals man!) rather than boring bollocks. Give me a break!

Radiohead don't need knocking down: They need to be locked up!

Julio Desouza, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, Miles should've known his place, man. What right does a black man in the 70s - a black JAZZ MUSICIAN (or so he calls himself, *harumph*) - have to put any humor in his records? I mean, he's supposed to be concerned with elevating his people through High Art and furthering the progress of Creative Music, not just wanking over funk riffs with sunglasses on. Don't you wish he could have been a *real* musician like Anthony Braxton?

Give me a break, Julio. The ghetto of academia is just another ghetto. Miles knew that, and he didn't want that. What right do you have to call Miles' 70s stuff "comedy designed to sell records"? Any more than I have to call Anthony Braxton's music "art paff designed to gain highbrow cred"?

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Radiohead are worse because they got tired of their job. That is to write songs.

"Where are the fuckin' CHOONS, man?"

Melissa W, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

miles's mid-70s records are better than his early unfunny ones

it would actually not surprise me to discover that braxton's records are designed to make people laugh and sell more: he is not a particuarly worldly or clued-in fellow... his notion of a "surefire sell-out" would be worth queuing up for

mark s, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Nuh-uh. No way.

We must differ here, Adam. ;-) The early stuff just doesn't move me in the slightest, occasional cover version aside -- which should say something.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

they are given licence by their record company to 'experiment'

All this talk of Kid A and Amnesiac being 'experimental' was created by the media - and it seems to have become an albatross around Radiohead's neck, despite them never claiming to be experimental.

Which is a shame, as it seems to have pissed everyone right off. Lesson: don't listen to the music press, ho ho ho.

clive, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Ripping on Radiohead -is- the straw man of crit right about now. Isn't that always the way ..

Dare, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

radiohead is the only band i can think of currently operating for whom the fans make me wary of listening and enjoying.

jess, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Anthony Braxton has always struck me as the They Might Be Giants of "jazz".

Kris, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

''Yeah, Miles should've known his place, man. What right does a black man in the 70s - a black JAZZ MUSICIAN (or so he calls himself, *harumph*) - have to put any humor in his records? I mean, he's supposed to be concerned with elevating his people through High Art and furthering the progress of Creative Music, not just wanking over funk riffs with sunglasses on.''

Comedy= As in the way he used the studio. I object the way these people used the studio to make these jamming sessions into a big lump of shit. And the jazz-rock stuff is a gimmick (if you get a horn in there and then you put a guitar= that's what you come up with!- the critics called it 'innovation'). And in that way this is similar to radiohead. A guitar band given access to equipment and agonizing as to how to get their shit together.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear as this wasn't a tirade against humour in music.

''Any more than I have to call Anthony Braxton's music "art paff designed to gain highbrow cred"?''

I never compared Miles to Braxton. for the record, Miles has a fantastic sound on that trumpet but I just never liked those jazz- rock albums. And listening to braxton has been a laugh.

Julio Desouza, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

'"Where are the fuckin' CHOONS, man?"'

True, Radiohead never had them.

Julio Desouza, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I see how you might say the studio presence on those records is "inauthentic" or something, but comedic? Please do explain this! You could say that the jamming sessions were the big lumps of shit, and the studio editing made them into juicy, effective mini-jams, and then I might understand. But...???

And yes, the party line is that Miles sold out in the 70s, moved toward "jazz-rock" to sell records. If that's the case, WHY ARE THOSE ALBUMS SO "DIFFICULT" and

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Clarke- The studio can be used for the good. I don't whether those jams were really good or not as they edited them into something else, and from that I never got the sense that there was something special going on.

''Comedic'' as in 'It's a joke, isn't it?'

''And yes, the party line is that Miles sold out in the 70s, moved toward "jazz-rock" to sell records. If that's the case, WHY ARE THOSE ALBUMS SO "DIFFICULT" and''

i had never read any criticism of Miles' stuff but then again I've never read enough Jazz magazines. I'd always thought that it was an experiment that didn't quite do anything for me.

Is Bitches brew difficult? There is a certain level of density but I felt that the personality of the musicians did not communicate well.

I also mislead earlier when I said ''those jazz-rock albums'' as i only heard Bitches-brew and a couple of other tracks on other albums.

Julio Desouza, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, Bitches Brew is possibly my least favorite of the period. I like Get Up With It, Dark Magus, and Pangaea a whole lot better - you should at least give those a fair listen.

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Clarke- Well, I gave brew several listens. Didn't like it so i usually tend to forget (that was three years ago, I think) to try others and I didn't have too much money.

Could give it a go. What makes Dark magus work, where BB failed?

Julio Desouza, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

four guitars!! like thin lizzy squared!!

mark s, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

or wishbone ash

mark s, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, I wouldn't say that BB failed - I still like it a lot, I just don't think it's as powerful as the later ones. It sounds tentative, like it's just getting its footing - which, for some groups and styles, makes for the most interesting music, but not for Miles' 70s stuff. The later stuff has this weird swagger - I guess you could say it's more rock (which means you might hate it even more!), but it's totally not. I love the three-guitar line-up, much more than McLaughlin (he's a great player, just not my absolute favorite). (That said, A Tribute to Jack Johnson is ridiculously good.) Pangaea (a live one from '75) to me is like the godhead of this 70s fusion stuff. The first half of the first track is some of the most psychedelic music I've ever heard. Somebody else needs to back me up here!

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Bitches Brew is from 1970, hardly a "mid-1970s" Miles Davis record. As for mid-70's Miles studio* albums, there is only one, Get Up With It (he "retired" in early 1975). Yr arguement involving Miles Davis's albums from that time period is pretty flimsy at best. You should've just said when he went electric.

As for the topic at hand, I had an advance copy of OK Computer which I thought was little more than aural wallpaper, and didn't understand why by year end it was so highly praised, but I've had "Dope Show" stuck in my head quite a few times (pretty good, considering I don't think I've ever heard the whole song), so Mr. Warner gets the nod. But as asked in the final part of this thread's question, I certainly care aboot neither of these albums in 2002.

*Agharta the only other album to come out in the mid-1970's like most of Miles' other albums in the 1970's, was a live album.

Vic Funk, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

...keep your day job Clueless Clarke.

Kisses,

Bob

, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

And I'm sorry, but the anti-Radiohead backlash is lamely predictable. I'm not a Radiohead fanboy *at all*, and I think Kid A is their best album, but Marilyn Manson? Maybe I just need to hear more.

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

What the fuck are you talking about, Bob? Vic was talking to Julio, who referred to Bitches Brew as a mid-70s album - I only mentioned "Miles 70s albums." Again, what the fuck are you talking about?

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Are you a McLaughlin fanboy who googled his name and found this thread?

Clarke B., Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

i agree (with Ned) that "mechanical animals" is way better than their earlier albums, which came off as kinda dopey, especially antichrist. used to love Portrait, but i dont think the whole fun, Wonka demented aspect of the band came off like they probably wanted it to. who knows...but i love the glamier feel of animals, and the songs are just really damn catchy

matt, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't really see a connection with ok computer...but i like em both a lot

matt, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Dag. This thread mutated like a Ninja Turtle.

adam, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

someone who's trying to be funny but isn't vs someone who is trying to be serious but is laughable. hell, i can't pick.

di, Sunday, 14 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

The second one i.e. Enrique!

bnw, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

''Bitches Brew is from 1970, hardly a "mid-1970s" Miles Davis record. As for mid-70's Miles studio* albums, there is only one, Get Up With It (he "retired" in early 1975). Yr arguement involving Miles Davis's albums from that time period is pretty flimsy at best.''

Oh, who fucking cares abt dates. 'Sometime in the 70s it is' then.

You state my argument is flimsy= but where's the reasoning.

I won't back down on the point that BB is a dud and I equate it to what radiohead are doing (not that they've made a jazz album) in that they are both artists on major labels who have 'experimented' and failed to come up with the goods. And on Mclaughin, I just don't see what's so good abt his guitar playing, really.

Julio Desouza, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

'BB' is a dud with about 3 listenable minutes (the trumpet entering in 'Spanish Key', and - ha ha ha - "John McLaughlin"), 'Silent Way' is Coffee Republic music, 'Pangaea' sounds like a dripping tap. Even "Rated X" sounds like music for a local (i.e. lo-budget) sports program. I've nothing against electric jazz-funk, but it's got to have some funk, or some jazz in it, or rock even. 'Miles in the Sky' (actually ALL the Shorter/Williams/Hancock stuff) is where it stops for me and the Dark Magus.

dave q, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

dark magus - there is so much shit rhythm guitar played on here - on the corner - i slow it down to main-like mush b4 listening - GIMME iasw AND taktaks S.O.E. anyday. i have never heard OKC or MA apart from the singles - PA has the ambition but TDS wins by it's execution - neither have owt to do with me.

a-33, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

They both suck. Proof: this thread has turned into a discussion of Miles Davis' 70s records. Nuffsaid.

Ben Butler, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Anyway...Radiohead make me want to piss myself they are so laughable, but their hardcore fans make me want to murder people.

Ally, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

"Mechanical Animals" - an example of a (ultimately one-man) band who mean it about not meaning it, but end up meaning it anyway? IOW, it's as artificial and deliberate as all hell, but I still find it to be quite an emotionally affecting album. (inspired by recent discussions re The Streets and Daft Punk).

Tim, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

If forced to pick one, I'd probably go with _MA_ because, like Ned, I was completely shock and amazed that Marylin Manson had finally come up with an album that lived up to his image; I desperately wanted to like him, but his music was so horrible that I couldn't do more than chuckle at his imagery. Except, I hated Radiohead before _OK Computer_ made me realize that not everything they did sounded like "Creep". Shoot, I can't pick.

Dan Perry, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

''They both suck. Proof: this thread has turned into a discussion of Miles Davis' 70s records. Nuffsaid.''

And I started it. isn't it wonderful?

Julio Desouza, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, Dave Q, you should remember your Shakespeare. Art holds a mirror up to the soul, and if a monkey looks into it, it sure as hell won't see a philosopher staring out.

Chris Sallis, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

like monkeys which escaped from radiohead message boards, etc?

jess, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Unless its a very philosophical monkey of course.

Chris Sallis, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Christ that was quick Jess! Are you following me?

Chris Sallis, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

All right then, it's a fair cop guvnor. I admit before the entire web community that I have visited, of my own free will, websites dedicated to the british pop band radiohead. How any of you will be able to find it in your hearts to forgive me I cannot fathom, but the fact remains.

Radiohead piss on MM from a very, very great height.

Chris Sallis, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

yes yes but are they better?

mark s, Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

They both suck. Proof: this thread has turned into a discussion of Miles Davis' 70s records.

Where?

matthew m., Monday, 15 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Matthew- go down the road from your house (we know where you live), turn left, and you will find ILM-ers chewing the fat over Miles 70s albums.

Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 16 April 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link

seven years pass...

Wow, this was a weird thread.

Relistening to Mechanical for the first time in a bit. Still fantastic. This might have been Michael Beinhorn's year as a producer (see also Celebrity Skin).

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 19:46 (ten years ago) link

Mechanical may not be the best record but its by far more enjoyable to listen to. still love it.

Jamie_ATP, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 20:14 (ten years ago) link

NEW
NEW
NEW MODEL!

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 May 2009 20:18 (ten years ago) link

nine years pass...

It's Mechanical Animals.

Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Friday, 11 January 2019 11:02 (ten months ago) link

reminded today that this year also had Mansun - Six / Pulp - This Is Hardcore / Smashing Pumpkins - Adore / Eels - Electro-Shock Blues

it was a good music year for me to be a moody 14 year old in.

Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Friday, 18 January 2019 15:08 (ten months ago) link

What a thread.

pomenitul, Friday, 18 January 2019 15:14 (ten months ago) link

I was a moody 13 year old when Mechanical Animals came out and I remember liking it less than Antichrist Superstar.

pomenitul, Friday, 18 January 2019 15:15 (ten months ago) link

^^ Same, was very disappointed by it.

Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 18 January 2019 15:17 (ten months ago) link

'The Dope Show' was cool and all but it didn't send a transgressive teenage shiver down my spine like 'The Beautiful People' when I first heard it a year prior or the rumour according to which he'd removed one of his ribs to suck his own dick.

pomenitul, Friday, 18 January 2019 15:22 (ten months ago) link

I was a moody 13 year old when Mechanical Animals came out and I remember liking it less than Antichrist Superstar.

― pomenitul, Friday, January 18, 2019 8:15 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

pretty sure time reveals that mechanical animals is just better all around from a songwriting standpoint

which, ofc, i haven't really been able to listen to any of his records since the jeordie white stuff came out

jolene club remix (BradNelson), Friday, 18 January 2019 15:27 (ten months ago) link

xp it's true, nothing says 'transgression'' to a teenager like triplets

j., Friday, 18 January 2019 16:11 (ten months ago) link

That and the diabolus in musica.

pomenitul, Friday, 18 January 2019 16:17 (ten months ago) link


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