Is there anything the Labour Party can do to win the next election?

Dude, people hate the party now, not just the leadership. Putting a pretty boy out front isn't going to make much difference.

IDS and Howard were both cases of "someone has to do it"

Howard wasn't even trying to wih the election last time.

Also, I don't believe for one second Cameron is just "an empty fucking vessel" - Labour were guilty of underestimating him for much of last year and it blew up in their faces.

Well, an independent Scotland will mean we'll be stuck with the tories for ever, so thanks but no thanks.

Not up to you, is it?

Funnily enough, the T's generally don't like Cameron

But they don't care because they want power and think that once he's in he'll revert to the Right. Which he probably will.

Dude, people hate the party now, not just the leadership. Putting a pretty boy out front isn't going to make much difference

So, why stick with him?

Also, I don't believe for one second Cameron is just "an empty fucking vessel"

What are his policies then?

He's got plenty of policies but he's not about to tell anyone about them, if he doesn't have to

Labour have absolutely no chance of winning the 2010 election. The only strategy they could have employed would have been to call a June 2007 election - I have absolutely no idea why they did not do this

I wondered how long it would be before Laxalt came along and told us what WE SHOULD HAVE DONE.

Got a labour party membership card have we?

'we'?

Jol out.

OK now that laxalt has spoken I am confident Labour will win the next election

They would have won in November 2007 as well.

November they would have won also yes. Wasn't consensus on here that he fluffed in not calling last autumn?

Tom D it is good you are feeling confident. Perhaps a trip to the bookies might be in order

Any more tips?

Look's bad but I don't think it's unsalvageable. Though a lot will depend on external factors, most importantly how the economy copes in the next couple of years. If they can sort out the Northern Rock problem before the next election that would be a major filip to their reputation.

The most important thing is that Brown should be seen to be doing something, the charges are that he's a ditherer and ducks the issues are corrosive. Elector's may forgive a government going through a bad patch, they won't forgive a leader who stands back and (is seen) to do nothing about it.

summary of "honeymoon period/feelgood factor"

When you are ahead in the polls, things look nice.

But, call an election like NOW based on those figures, and the honeymoon/feelgood VANISHES!

This is why no-one's been dumb enough to try it.

So, what to do? Get Ant and Dec to take over as partyleader.

Not be crap?

Yes, only if Labor could replace Brown with someone slightly less terrible but I wouldn't know where to find him or her.

Oh well, enjoy your future New Modern Tory nightmare everyone. Except for our viewers in Scotland.

Ant and Dec = tainted by corruption scandals

At the moment I can't see the next labour leader being anything but a milliband and I can't see one winning much either.

The problem is there is a growing awareness that the current economic problems -- which cannot be salvaged before a 2010 election (and are arguably being made worse by the actions of the last 6 months), are largely of Browns own making (yes other countries followed similar paths and are also in similar positions).

The spin is to put the blame for current economic situation on 'american subprime' which Brown raises constantly in order to deflect blame. His worst problem though is the fact that he is not good at covering this up, is not good at concealing it, he looks like a condemned man - and has done since day one. Public never tends to vote for politicians once they enter that phase

To be elected is not an impossibility I will admit - as Major showed in 92. Did Major have the same aura of incompetence though?

(xp*2) OK, let them run for Mayor next time up then..

They would have won in November 2007 as well.

-- Matt DC, Friday, 2 May 2008 10:40 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

In the middle of the Northern Rock crisis?

Miliband: Is that supposed to be a mustache?

he looks like a condemned man - and has done since day one

No he didn't

Did Major have the same aura of incompetence though?

Are you kidding here?

At the moment I can't see the next labour leader being anything but a milliband and I can't see one winning much either.

-- Ed, Friday, 2 May 2008 10:58 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

You're forgetting the uber-popular and charming Ed Balls.

Haha October then. I have no idea what would have happened if Northern Rock had occurred in the middle of an election campaign. Things never seem to kick off in election campaigns usually.

One or two senior government figures will suddenly start saying as little as possible in order to drop off the radar and avoid being tainted by this govt's last couple of years. Anyone heard anything from Jack Straw lately?

One or two senior government figures will suddenly start saying as little as possible in order to drop off the radar and avoid being tainted by this govt's last couple of years.

-- Matt DC, Friday, 2 May 2008 11:03 (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

I was thinking _exactly_ the same thing about Alan Johnson this morning. He should be next PM, he looks like he should have managed Man City in the 70s.

He might still manage Man City

SOME of the problems are of Brown's own making, and others aren't. The root of the problem is American subprime - without that the credit crunch wouldn't have occurred. The problem is that Brown has encouraged the conditions under which Britain is particularly vulnerable to a tightening of the credit market.

Before anyone says anything, I do not know what I would have done differently at the time, and I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing. This is why, happily, I am not Chancellor of the Exchequer.

They would have won in November 2007 as well.

-- Matt DC, Friday, 2 May 2008 10:40 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

In the middle of the Northern Rock crisis?

Was last month they had a chance of winning. Though the non-economic bad news was coming thick and fast then (the hospital bug stuff and that harman business seem a long time ago now). public still believed northern rock was isolated incident and could be contained

Are you kidding here?

About Major? No. Wasn't sure if his aura of incompetence was quite as bad as Browns or not - was genuine question

This govt has a long long way to go before it reaches the aura of incompetence that Major achieved. Thing with Major is, the media knew he was a dead duck and sensing blood were pretty much relentless in their attack. The same thing could now happen to Brown, and Cameron's policies might not be put under the scrutiny they deserve.

The root of the problem is American subprime - without that the credit crunch wouldn't have occurred

Don't believe this to be true. It merely happened in america first.

Am talking about Major 90-92 here though, the Major that managed to win an election!

This is the man to save Labour: John McDonnell

Well, unless it happened in Britain first, it would still be outside Brown's jurisdiction?

(xpost - I'm so disappointed that didn't say 'Harry Redknapp')

major's aura of incompetence began with black wednesday -- ie several months after april 1992 election, tom

wrt leader-changing: labour doesn't actually have the unite-the-two-wings problem that meant the tories had to go through three further self-evident duds to find an empty vessel -- however this is still a massive punt that doesn't address deeper problems within the party since its blair-is-all reshaping

damage to brown's alleged deep prudent subtle grasp of economics = running the UK economy as if all was well in the world economy, and not keeping some trick in reserve for subprime problem even when it was but the size of a small child's fist far off on the otherwise blemishless horizon -- it's ture that next to no one (apart from a handful of ecnomo-bear cassandras) was saying VERY BAD STUFF AHEAD, so brown isn't alone for not knowing better, but all this means is he gets to wear an "as clueless as the rest of em" badge, which in this context is no help

This is the man to save Labour: John Ramsay McDonnell

fixed

I'm not sure how he managed to get the prudent tag in the first place given the huge increases in debt and the huge increases in money supply that occured during his tenure

Urgently required: 1 Labour-saving device

Ask Tony Blair if he wants his old job back.

Brown was prudently counter cyclical for the first half of his tenure, then the wheels fell of that plan.

One or two senior government figures will suddenly start saying as little as possible in order to drop off the radar and avoid being tainted by this govt's last couple of years. Anyone heard anything from Jack Straw lately?

-- Matt DC, Friday, May 2, 2008

seems to be 3rd favourite behind Cameron and Osbourne to be next PM

http://www.oddschecker.com/specials/politics-and-election/uk-cabinet-specials/next-prime-minister

"huge increases in debt" <--- a. no one considered qualified to comment considered this a problem, b. it wasn't g.brown's personal debt it's all those chavs (<--- taxicab thinking not mine)

prudent = nothing much went pearshaped
qualified to comment = economic and financial commentary in general is indicted by subprime (which is a a bit of a reflex marker anyway for colossal scale of debt in key western economies at all levels)

The prudence tag came from a first term "hey look Britain we are not going to lavish money on everything in the first five minutes and then realise there's nothing in the cash register" and he got attacked by the left for sticking to Tory spending plans. Damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.

Also, Brown actually paid off a big chunk of national debt prior to the 2001 election which won the continued support of the Sun. Obviously he borrowed more since, but it's worth noting.

I worry about the cuts in spending that will arise from a Tory government plus failing economy. I suspect this is the nasty stuff Cameron is holding over until after the election.

well debt and money supply are the same thing anyway so the reiteration wasn't required. debt can be written off as personal problems I guess - but call it what it really is - money supply - and the fault comes back to the administration

oh god i just realised: three phrases that will now never be off pundit lips

i: stalking horse
ii: throw his/her hat in the ring
iii: last chance fucking saloon

you forgot

GREEN SHOOTS OF RECOVERY

ad nauseum for next 5 years

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/STALKING-HORSE_602060.jpg?mediatype=2&mediaid=602060&fitfill=fit&pvw=676

kier starmer take the budd dwyer challenge u coward

I spent my 20s thinking of myself as "lucky" because I was only thrown out for two days after I was outed to my parents as gay. Had it been that I was trans, I would have been lucky to even make it to homelessness because of my stepdad's bigotry. This is the kind of thing that could directly lead to the deaths of trans teenagers.

Keir Starmer has given an interview to Justine Roberts, the founder of parenting and anti trans message board Mumsnet.

Here is everything Keir Starmer said about trans topics to Mumsnet.

1/17

— What The Trans!? (WhatTheTrans.com) (@WhatTheTrans) November 1, 2022

whole lot more bullshit from him here

after all this i'm labor to be whipped to abstain when the tories make their recently announced move to gut existing legal protections for trans people

thinking of all the shitty wretched nights I spent at Boys Brigade football practice and so on, just being miserable and easily targeted by peers, at the insistence of a parent who thought the best thing for me was to suffer that in a pathetic attempt to become more masculine (spoiler: it didn't work, I'm still fabulous) - it was awful, and I didn't even have it that bad at all in comparative terms.

He's an amoral right-wing social conservative and he's very bad at hiding it at the best of times. But he's certainly not going to try too hard to hide it when he's talking to mumsnet. He'll throw anyone under a bus this cunt - especially now he feels like the next GE is going to be winnable.

djmartian at 11:11 2 May 08

This is the man to save Labour: John McDonnell

oops quoted two months ago ha ha still tho

McD get's a lot of shit from the left and he certainly isn't above criticism. But I sure do miss him, especially after seeing that video above.

Despicable, pathetic little man.

read that the mumsnet transphobes weren't appeased by this anyway because Starmer said kids could still socially transition with parental approval, whereas they don't think anyone should ever be allowed to transition ever. so once again he's appealed to nobody.

a lot of this stuff is an effort to appeal to or signal to people who might be broadly sympathetic to voting Labour and just want him to offer the fig leaf. the same applies when he tries to woo the LBGTQ+ community, trade unions, people who fondly remember the Labour Party etc

xp ofc, Stella Creasy did a q&a on there and every single question was about it, absolute lunacy

No point in trying to please fanatics arguing from a deranged position of personal identity, you can never ever appease them enough. Better to just say what you think, although like his forebear Blair Starmer appears to think nothing whatsoever other than a vague sense of patriotic authoritarianism.

I think these people are (usually implicitly) arguing from a *collective* identity of aggrieved middle class whiteness not from unique personal identity - that's the only reason powerful men give a shit about what they have to say after all

pic.twitter.com/WlW0Yv3c93

— Dr Unpleasant #EnoughIsEnough (@drunpleasant) November 18, 2022

Rachel Reeves once took a ball off a kid at an engagement party and threw it over the back fence before shouting at the kid and making them cry, then shouting at their parents as well. The parents ended up making a "her or us" at the wedding ultimatum to the engaged couple.

— Sii (@skippy_0h) November 18, 2022

this ghoul makes Jeremy Hunt seem like a human being... yeah I know!

He's not only one of the best MPs in Parliament and a fierce champion of the working class, but he's also an amazing friend and comrade.

I'm honestly so thrilled @IanByrneMP has been reselected as the Labour MP for Liverpool West Derby 🥳❤️ pic.twitter.com/3eNcyitH5e

— Zarah Sultana MP (@zarahsultana) November 20, 2022

this saved me organising my thoughts

I think that SCG M.P.s are often less bad personally but their presence lends legitimacy to the Labour machine that will ultimately grind them into paste.

That said, it is fun to see Harpin, Akehurst, and assorted Briefcase Enthusiasts eat shit every once in a while.

— Kier Hardly (@KeirWillow) November 20, 2022

that's about the only good thing about it, even with the odds heavily stacked in their favour these ghouls can't even manage a stitch-up properly

Quite an interesting piece on the politics of that seat.

https://www.livpost.co.uk/p/ian-byrne-fights-for-survival

"Crick believes there is a “lot of resentment” from the Corbyn years, when left-wing candidates were parachuted into seats"

except this never actually happened

not only did it not happen, but they didn't expel any of the right wing scumbags who are running amok now ffs

Michael Crick still has a job has he?

His current job sounds made-up.

“…michael crick?”

Yeah, right wing scumbags accusing Corbyn and/or Momentum of doing all the stuff they really should have been doing but didn't is a thing

Don't think that's what Lab left should've been doing. It's really petty, very locally factional stuff, picking one member at a time. The couple is constantly fighting, when divorce is an option.

I don't know how you would go about this but maybe it would be a re-drawing of the party constitution. Maybe mass taking away of whips from some of the worst MPs and some that might be ok but are landlords, or have interests, for example. Jobs jobs 'Unions' like GMB are toxic and would be kicked out too. The problem is it would make it smaller at first, you'd maybe lose an election or two but overtime it's organised into something worthwhile with a coherent set of policies.

https://t.co/Q9S4AUq57O pic.twitter.com/rBODuLAP5P

— the penny respecter (@ChrisKPH) November 26, 2022

coke and sublime

The 56D chess game continues pic.twitter.com/gbQMlLX2hU

— j (@jrc1921) November 29, 2022

She's been staunchly, tepidly supportive of him in the hope that he'll suddenly be who she thinks she wants him to be. pic.twitter.com/QFaVPtlrfr

— Kamal Prashar (@kampra) November 29, 2022

ah centrism. the vibes, the whole vibes and nothing but the vibes

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-miliband-labour-general-election-b2235070.html

Big Beast.

Straining the already stretched metaphorical applicability of the words both “big” and “beast” IMO pic.twitter.com/vkfPlWgP1z

— Flying_Rodent (@flying_rodent) December 20, 2022

Tend to agree.

Nobody’s going to be able to stop Starmer getting in, but for gods sake don’t encourage the creeping fascism of the party by voting for him. The task is to break up a party that’s made itself morally meaningless and create the conditions where it’s forced to alter itself.

— matthew collings (@matthew51691936) February 20, 2023

do i want to click that tweet and read a bunch of maroons calling him a tory enabler? no sir, i do not

when the Tories have been voted out and they aren't actually opposing or voting against any of Labour's detrimental austerity+ benefits and NHS reforms and Rosie Duffield is the new minister for woman and equalities, that will be the time to congratulate yourself that you weren't no Tory enabler in 2024!

Do you really think Duffield gets any women’s or equalities job before Jess Phillips? The latter would elbow the former in the face for shits and giggles.

no, I was just rhetorically using Duffield for dramatic effect!