Frank Kogan's forthcoming "Real Punks Don't Wear Black"

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i wish they'd used the rockcritics.com pic of him playing the accordion!

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 23 November 2005 05:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Billy, I do have a beard. That picture's 20 years old. Since then I transferred hair from pate to chin.

David, do you still have that picture I sent you last year w/ good-looking friend and beard? I lost the file for it in the great computer crash of '04. Anyway, you can post it if you'd like.

(My rationalization for using the old picture is that since the writing covers a span from 1970 to 2004, I'm justified in using one that plops in the middle at 1985.) (To be honest, the vast majority dates from after 1985.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 December 2005 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link

And here's a link to the paperback version.

(They really shouldn't even be listing the hardcover, since my understanding is that it's only going to be available to libraries.)

And here's the link for those of you who use U.S. currency.

And Asian.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 December 2005 18:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I only pay for things in Byzantine solidii.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 2 December 2005 18:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Frank, I know it's a ways off but is the book getting interest and reviews anywhere? Since I work for one, I'm curious to see whether being on acadameic press helps or hurts in terms of where this is considred for review.

G-Mart, Friday, 2 December 2005 19:44 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm sad to hear thats an old pic, i thought the haircut was er.. brave for 2005.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Friday, 2 December 2005 19:52 (eighteen years ago) link

No bookstore tour (or sales) till February 2006?

curmudgeon, Friday, 2 December 2005 19:55 (eighteen years ago) link

the uga library don't have this book (yet?) :(

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 2 December 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Once more, with feeling, does this book contain that whole "people who use critical theory are just avoiding the direct expression of their hopes and fears" argument in a more elaborate form?

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Friday, 2 December 2005 23:26 (eighteen years ago) link

does it touch on how its kinda passive-aggressive?

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Friday, 2 December 2005 23:49 (eighteen years ago) link

the uga library don't have this book (yet?) :(

it isn't out for three months!

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Saturday, 3 December 2005 00:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm sorry if I'm coming off like I'm baiting Mr. Kogan by asking that- it really is a sincere question, I would love it if the answer was "yes it does have that in it", because I would like to read it and (full disclosure) I would like to teach a text along those lines. The only thing I've run into lately that made vaguely similiar moves was a catalogue essay by Kathy Grayson but it was about the art world and had a different angle.

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Saturday, 3 December 2005 01:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Not out for three months! Typical for a University press I guess. A private entity would want to have it out and available for the holidays.

curmudgeon (Steve K), Saturday, 3 December 2005 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link

i was actually hoping to ask for it for christmas

tom west (thomp), Saturday, 3 December 2005 02:20 (eighteen years ago) link

just to make things clear, i wasn't referring to anyone's post as passive-aggressive. more just throwing out incomprehensible pieces my own frustration about the cult of not owning up to own's personal experience with music (art), in order to somehow control it or even nullify it. i have no idea if this has anything to do with kogans theories. i do think that these days, people use other thinker's constructs (including critical thoery) in the wrong ways, for wrong reasons ...like the above which i do think is obviously about fear more than some new idea that there is some baseline of experience we all understand connect too...which has all been mapped out in the past.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 3 December 2005 03:05 (eighteen years ago) link

oi, i'm not really getting my ideas across. maybe i should use someone elses.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 3 December 2005 03:15 (eighteen years ago) link

I do sort of understand why people use theory as a shield in that sense, though--I do it a lot myself. It's because it's hard to write well and interesteingly about yourself without feeling maudlin or vain or wondering if you're giving too much away. Sometimes it's easier to tell the through when you're wearing a mask. Not always, but nothing is "always" anything, y'know?

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Saturday, 3 December 2005 07:07 (eighteen years ago) link

haha "tell the through." tell the TRUTH.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Saturday, 3 December 2005 07:19 (eighteen years ago) link

i sense that's definitely part of it. it lends itself to a potentially uncomfortable and sticky approach with regard to exposure, yeah, and questions about value of that/ie. self-indulgence and also there's alot of oppurtunity for confusion. And while i think this type of writing IS obviously way more personal than its counterpart?, it does not have to be "self-plagairism"/emotional diarhhea etc - it only feels that way b/c a. it is harder and people don't practice this anymore so they are awkward at it b. writers may not see the potential/relationship between this and developing their own theories (that is only something people 50 years ago could do) so it feels like an undesirable exercise in letting your ass hang out d. there seems to be peer pressure to avoid this approach.

i also think its possible people (and maybe particularly masculine types) in general have a hard time reconciling parts of their experience with art and their intelligence. for instance, on ILM we talk this way about rock alot, but less so about disco. and it's interesting that you see WAY less of this type of writing in europe, particularly spain/italy/france maybe too. men are warmer there...just ask mareisa sabiel.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 00:34 (eighteen years ago) link

"for instance, on ILM, we talk this way about rock a lot, but less so about disco" ---i'm referring to the masculininity (not intelligence) inherent in rock. i had added the parentheses around masculine types later.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 00:54 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't follow you, Susan. People talk about the masculinity about rock in masculine ways on ILM? And what do you mean by "reconciling parts of their experience with art with their intelligence?"

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 4 December 2005 01:15 (eighteen years ago) link

i was trying to say that maybe intellectuals have a hard time finding a way to explain how their appreciation for music is basic/emotional yet mind-based at the same time,b/c they see a disconnect between it all. and that maybe this is cultural issue, but also more associated with men or with masculinity -i see it cropping up more in the rock (which i feel is a more masculine pursuit) discussions on ILM and less so in the disco discussions where people build more from the ground up.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm afraid I just don't know what you're referring to. What would be some kind of example of a masculine discussion about rock where people are experiencing an emotional/intellectual disconnect and don't 'build from the ground up?'

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 4 December 2005 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link

i'll try to find an example.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 01:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think I agree w/Susan here, but that might be because when I think of ILM I tend to think of it more as it was two-three years ago, when I was reading it a lot as opposed to very selectively the way I have the past couple years. earlier on, there was a definite not-macho bent to a lot of the discussions, and disco was spoken about at least as much as anything else, especially rock. whether that's the case now is hard for me to know since I read the boards very pickily.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 4 December 2005 02:29 (eighteen years ago) link

there was a pitchfork review recently that was singled out here b/c it was incomprehensible to ILM. Folks glommed onto author's use flowery language. Even though the author's flowery prose/descriptors/similes made total sense in the context of the rest of the piece. At some point someone recognizes his language as taken from, i can't remember, Thoreau? and the review makes much more sense. Later on, another mentions that it's not pitchfork's fault that ILMers don't know their lit....which could imply that this was the actual problem with understanding the entire piece. Perhaps the author assumed everyone would recognize the verse used, but that seems naive. I really think he probably felt the words stood on their own/meant something. I'm pretty sure this was about denial -everyone knew what the writer was "on about" from the beginning, but it seemed an outrageous approach??

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 03:13 (eighteen years ago) link

keeping in mind that this place is full of reactionary fucktards is very helpful in instances like that

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 4 December 2005 04:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I think most uses of "high culture" materials (whether they are references to critical writings or primary sources- poems, novels, paintings, what have you) in the context of writing about pop music run a terrible risk of being annoying to the reader, however apt or interesting they may be. If somebody doesn't get your reference then you are accused of being elitist and shutting your reader out- but odds are that if somebody *does* get your reference, their reaction is pretty likely to be indignant annoyance along the lines of "oh, fuck off, do you think I haven't already read X for myself don't be a prat / pseud / etc.". So all too often it is a "lose / lose" proposition: those who don't get it feel resentment towards you and those who do feel superior to you.

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Sunday, 4 December 2005 04:29 (eighteen years ago) link

It's relative, though. It doesn't matter whether someone is referencing something from high or low culture or wherever as long as there's a real reason for doing it. I would think that in general peopel would be a lot less likely to think you're a prat for referencing so-and-so or such-and-such if your point in doing so is strong and relevant.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 4 December 2005 04:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Bear I mind I say the above as someone who referenced fifteenth century translations of Virgil into English in a p1tchfork review of The Psychic Paramount.

Prat Power! Guilty as charged!

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Sunday, 4 December 2005 04:41 (eighteen years ago) link

when you reference someone else's work aren't you using it to illustrate your own argument and isn't it ok to pull abstracts out that fit your purpose, esp. with regard to something like poetry? how does the reader's understanding of the entire work even benefit them in this case? isn't he obviously isolating what he's using if he doesn't identify the work? i mean it depends on how the writer is referencing, but a couple of words drawn from poetry, in a short pitchfork review?? i guess my feeling was that people disregarded the writers ideas b/c he used descriptions and references to things in ways only he could know the meaning, yet once a source for these few words was identified, it was ok. both writers, pitchfork and the famous one, were speaking from "ground zero" at that point and both go on to illustrate their perspective in the rest of their writing. what is the difference then?

also maybe this discussion is best had elsewhere.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Tim, i didn't see your last post. Yeah, you would hope so, but i feel like it doesn't matter.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:02 (eighteen years ago) link

also, that should read "in ways THEY felt only he could know the exact meaning".

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:05 (eighteen years ago) link

much like bulgakov's woland, osbourne orchestrates a series of etc

gear (gear), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Was that example of people reacting negatively to the reference in the pitchfork review an example of what you were talking about, though, Susan ("masculine" arguments, problems with reconciling emotional and intellectual responses to art, etc.)?

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:28 (eighteen years ago) link

wellll, it was an example of an attitude that develops b/c of those things. am i not making sense? i realize this could just be MY issue or MY misunderstanding.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:33 (eighteen years ago) link

this is a type of thinking that I see associated with maleness....not necessarily know what masculine arguments would be. i mean i don't really have any examples of that.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:37 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm afeared for when Frank comes back and finds all this in the thread about his book. my guess is i'm paddling down a remote stream that may only flow in susanland, so probably not necessary to go further - but email me if you feel like discussing this further.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 4 December 2005 05:50 (eighteen years ago) link

ok so apropos of nothing (not really) i read this poem the other night and it mentioned (in a comic context) a "theory" type and later this dude (harvard grad, no surprise) comes up to me and makes a big deal out of being happy i did this and wanting to talk about this stuff in a totally dippy "who's your favorite these days" type thing like we're collecting motherfucking baseball cards or something. he got all pissed an high and mighty when i told him that i was sticking to the classics lately and didn't wanna play nametrading with him. not that this should necessarily reflect badly on any works themselves (any more than we hold whitesnake accountable for whitesnake fans -- though, now i'm wondering if we *should*?) but it was a seriously sketch moment where i felt like i'd inadvertantly dropped a password to the nu-skull&bones or something.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 4 December 2005 10:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Thread highjack! Yay!

To answer your question Drew, "Yes," though I hope I don't (in the book or here) come off as reductive/dismissive as your summary, "people who use critical theory are just avoiding the direct expression of their hopes and fears," makes it seem.

I just realized that actually my complaint might best be summarized as "crit theorists do a shit job of romanticism when they mire themselves in philosophy" or "hahaha, I'm more romantic than Derrida, nyaaah nyaaah." (My argument would be that "Nobody ever taught you how to live out on the street" or "Do you think that you could make it with Frankenstein?" are the real deal when it comes to romanticism, whereas Husserl's or someone's "metaphysics of presence" uses such a bizarre and dysfunctionally extreme concept of "presence" that deconstructing such "presence" is beside the point and has little to do with the romantic impulse to be face-to-face with "Frankenstein" or whatever you're trying to be alive and present and involved with. Got to go soon, so don't have time to make this argument intelligible.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 4 December 2005 13:11 (eighteen years ago) link

i was trying to say that maybe intellectuals have a hard time finding a way to explain how their appreciation for music is basic/emotional yet mind-based at the same time,b/c they see a disconnect between it all

Isn't lots of critical theory trying to undo this disconnect, though? My problem with (some) crit theory is that it deploys arguments that were used to successfully blast to pieces Descartes' "mind-matter" and Kant's "concept-intuition" dichotomies, whereas people's reasons in the here and now for retreating to the emotion-intellect divide have nothing to do with Descartes and Kant, hence the blast misses its target. (And yes, my book talks about this too, though there's way more to be said than the book gets around to saying, obv.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 4 December 2005 13:23 (eighteen years ago) link

I think most uses of "high culture" materials (whether they are references to critical writings or primary sources- poems, novels, paintings, what have you) in the context of writing about pop music run a terrible risk of being annoying to the reader, however apt or interesting they may be. If somebody doesn't get your reference then you are accused of being elitist and shutting your reader out- but odds are that if somebody *does* get your reference, their reaction is pretty likely to be indignant annoyance along the lines of "oh, fuck off, do you think I haven't already read X for myself don't be a prat / pseud / etc.". So all too often it is a "lose / lose" proposition: those who don't get it feel resentment towards you and those who do feel superior to you.

And if all goes well, my book will inspire people to dig into the socioemotional reasons why such apparently stupid accusations and expressions of annoyance carry such cultural weight.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 4 December 2005 13:28 (eighteen years ago) link

his intellect (the largest, Frank writes, and most self-questioning in all of rockcrit

Actually, I didn't claim my intellect was the biggest in the biz, merely that no one in Rockville questions and probes the way I do, which is the truth. But there's a lot that intellects do beyond questioning and probing, and I'm hardly the best at everything.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 4 December 2005 13:35 (eighteen years ago) link

an acknowledgements list that takes in virtually everybody in this community

It doesn't come close, unfortunately, and various lists trail off with "too many others to mention" and "several zillion more" and the like.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 4 December 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe to avoid continuning to hijack Frank's thread we should start a new thread on this cluster of topics?

I'm not sure what the heading of this thread should be- maybe "theory and music criticism and embarassment"? / "music criticism and theory and etiquette"? / "don't hate me because i'm theory damaged"? / "vent your frustrations with theory here" / "vent your frustrations with the prevalent anti-theory backlash here"?

It seems like there is a weird transaction going in when "theory" discourse pops up in alt weeklies and reviews and such. Hell, in journalism at all- I just found an article on Heino's farewell tour in The Economist which quoted Adorno and Jello Biafra. And this is the Economist, which, in its political and economic coverage, is as pro-capitalist and pro-business as it gets. So what's with the punk rock singers and ultra-Marxists being raided for juicy quotes about a German folksinger? Clearly this kind of having it both ways (relying on Marxist cultural critique on the entertainment page while carrying on waving the business as usual free market flag on the front page and editorial page) is a handy index of two things:

1) theory is safely dead and non-threatening
2) theory still constitutes a hoard of cultural capital

so how are the two related? What kind of push-pull is in effect when we need Adorno to feel smart about Heino and hip to the way the culture industry works, but we can only do so from this position of total security in our smug sense of the impossibility/ "deadness" of Adorno's own project? Anyway, this is part of what I am interested in, and also could be a way to speak to Susan's concerns and Sterling's observation.

Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Sunday, 4 December 2005 19:49 (eighteen years ago) link

this is a perfect thing to happen to this thread for so many reasons actually.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 5 December 2005 06:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Frank, ye are not alone, man. I too question and probe, but am now on a short leash in the commercial press (but vhy? vhy this thing?), so probe the blogoshere at will, walking on sushine and hot air. (I like that the book has all these different topics, descriptions, quotes, pieces of different lengths, some variety of mood and tone, considering the New England thing: lots of windows, window boxes, doors, eaves, desperadoes, etc.)

don, Monday, 5 December 2005 06:42 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Ben Thompson's review of Real Punks in the Independent:

At the opposite end of the rock-writing spectrum from Hoskyns' canonical professionalism, Frank Kogan's Real Punks Don't Wear Black (University Of Georgia Press, £15.95) eschews consideration of the exact point where David Crosby ends and David Geffen begins in favour of broader issues such as "Why does triviality protect awesomeness?" Spin and Village Voice veteran Kogan - himself part of a distinguished lineage of committed contrarians which includes Richard Meltzer, Lester Bangs and Chuck Eddy - laid the intellectual foundations for the "Blogging" era with his interactive fanzine "Why Music Sucks". And this first collection of his works promises (and delivers) "not just 'essays' and 'record reviews' but the whole mess of Frank" - using e-mails, diary excerpts, and chat-room postings to memorialise that moment of high-school satori when Kogan realised "I'm so obsessed with my own mind that I can't think of anything else."

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

When is this actually coming out?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha ha, READ FURST POAST HUCKL

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link


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