ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

How did I miss that Express thing???

that. is. fucking. BRILLIANT.

that's made my day; the fact that one executive, somewhere, still cares enough to send that e-mail out. perhaps all is not yet lost.

it's totally, totally different to coren; coren was one writer whining (albeit with some justification) about his precious copy; this is an exec doling out the beats because of what's happening to quality overall. fuck me, i would LOVE that to happen round our way.

absolutely superb.

― easy, lionel (grimly fiendish), Saturday, 11 October 2008 16:27 (4 days ago)

^^^this, really. several big lols and immediate forwarding to entire editorial team were the results.

(xposts) agree with jaymc - comma after second province is all that's needed, if any.

Thirded

Which raises point of discussion, actually. I'm crap with grammatical terminology and thus can't name them, but clauses like the beginnings of the following: In January, the candidate announced... or When questioned on the issue, a spokesman replied.... Was there a specific point where things like newspapers started dropping the comma on these? I keep noticing the NYT pushing the envelope on this -- they always leave it out on short, inconsequential ones like "last month," but I'm increasingly seeing it dropped on fairly long clauses like that, ones where it seems unbearable to me to leave it out.

Please also confirm that I'm not being fussy about this: surely it's just plain glaringly awfully wrong to frame a list like this --

We will serve apples, pears, plus bananas.

Awful, yes? Must finish original series with "and" before even thinking of using a "plus," yes?

i think you're right in terms of how we normally speak and write, but there's no real logical reason why the quote is wrong

It seems logically wrong to me because the initial series starts but never ends.

It would make sense to me to say that you're going to serve a complete list, plus an extra --
pears and apples + bananas

Whereas the form above reads to me like --
a list of thi-- + something else

but why can't you just use "plus" as a synonym for "and"? I realize it's "wrong" but is it wrong?

unit four plus two

what i'm asking is, outside of the mathematical arena, is there a difference in meaning between "plus" and "and"?

I dunno! I guess I automatically think of "plus" as only putting already-complete things together.

Also, in the thing I'm working on, it's used in the "cool bonus" sense (e.g., get cool stuff -- PLUS free shipping!), which seems to really call for finishing the original series.

xpost - yeah, I think there's a distinct difference between "plus" and "and," especially in terms of connotations / general usage today / etc. For instance, you would never say "Me plus Sarah are going to see a movie."

I dunno! I guess I automatically think of "plus" as only putting already-complete things together.

I share that instinct, but it only makes sense if we treat "plus" in these contexts as an analogue to "as well as," and I can't decide whether that should be the case or not.

Hahaha part of why I'm asking is that I always run into this with "as well as," as well! They're always like "we'll provide luxurious accommodations, prompt service, as well as high-quality treatment."

^^ to their credit, that usually gets changed if we call it out. Same thing with "plus" is less sure.

just to be clear, i agree that both of those uses are confusing and should just use "and" instead

We will serve apples, pears, plus bananas.

revolting

and: signifies either "in addition to" or "here is the final item in a list"

plus: signifies only "in addition to"

if i wasn't losing the will to live because of my motherfucking MSc, i'd engage more with this :(

I'm copping a lot of shit, for the second year running, for insisting on spelling Hallowe'en with an apostrophe. I can't find a national paper that disagrees with me, but still some of our writers are having a good go.

My feeling is, as a UK publication, we should no more bow to the apostrophe-free US spelling of this word than we ought to switch suddenly to "color" and "glamor".

The counter-argument, of course, is that the modern-day Hallowe'en celebration in the UK is based almost entirely on the US interpretation of the event, and so we should be using their spelling. Furthermore, the (US) movie spells it sans apostrophe, etc etc.

Uh.

personally, i think it's a bit of an affectation to use the apostrophe. however: the style guide for the paper i work for says to use an apostrophe, so there we go.

do you guys actually have a house-style guide, charlie? if so: shove it up these fuckers' arses.

if not, you should write one. then follow step one, above.

Go the whole hog and call it All Hallows' Even. You still get to be apostrophe punctilious as well. My preference, Halloween - because of the film and because I can't be arsed, and Hallowe'en looks pissy.

this is the smallest 'cello in the world playing "my heart bleeds for you"

over the 'phone

do you guys actually have a house-style guide, charlie? if so: shove it up these fuckers' arses.

yes. i wrote it, largely, and i take frequent pleasure in issuing rtfm-style edicts :-)

because of the film and because I can't be arsed, and Hallowe'en looks pissy

this is pretty much the full extent of the naysayers' arguments round these parts too!

thanks tracer, glad you feel the full exctent of my pain...

xpost to tracer:

devil's advocate:

where do you draw the line, though? "ach, most people dont use apostrophes in anything any more. so we wont either. i mean, you can understand this, cant you?"

i think you should keep the apostrophes to preserve your vanishing sense of cultural identity

"remember, remember the.. what was it again?"

underway or under way?

the latter.

because of the film and because I can't be arsed, and Hallowe'en looks pissy

this is pretty much the full extent of the naysayers' arguments round these parts too!

I just think it's one of those things got to the stage where it can look like you're hectoring readers by using it - like 'gaol'. However, the other part of me still likes using Hallowe'en because, well, it looks prettier. That's pretty feeble I know, but it ups the MR James quotient appropriate to the subject. Less reminiscent of children banging on your door while you're trying to brood.

"underway" = the opposite of an overpass?

under way, definitely.

the reason i favour Hallowe'en (and dictionaries seem to give equal weight to either spelling) is for the reasons GamalielRatsey gives above: it seems to fit better with the olde-worlde notion of a pagan, witch-based celebration of the macabre.

tracer, good points re 'cello and 'phone though, i only just noticed on re-reading which probably says it all!

this is the smallest 'cello in the world

Limoncello?

Cello = violincello.
Piano = pianoforte.

Also:

Bone = trombone
Pet = trumpet
Flute = skin flute

Cello = violincello

RONG. violoncello. seriously.

i wonder what wonders i could have achieved if the part of my mind devoted to UTTERLY UNIMPORTANT FUCKING PEDANTRY was going to better use?

Surely you could not have learned to play the flute any better.

ditto the pink oboe, and the one-string bass.

(actually: i've been called a wanker in many different ways, and that is by far the most original. A++)

The counter-argument, of course, is that the modern-day Hallowe'en celebration in the UK is based almost entirely on the US interpretation of the event, and so we should be using their spelling.

Cop-out. I hear exactly the same argument from non-North-Americans who spell 'arse' the North American way.

I think ass should be spelled the US way if attached to "dumb" or some other American-ish phrase like "Git yo' ... over herre"

But otherwise, yes, it looks silly.

i wonder what wonders i could have achieved if the part of my mind devoted to UTTERLY UNIMPORTANT FUCKING PEDANTRY was going to better use?

Wonder what wonders no longer:
1) Pedantry is fun.

because

2) It irritates other people and makes you look bad, but not in a good way.

What could be better than that? Such pleasures are hard to come by in this deteriorated age of idle postmen/pub football fans/nu-style beanie hat wearers/fixed-wheel cyclists/aggressive drivers/intrusive landladies/snide colleagues/kfc dropping youths who assert their assertiveness by deliberately walking confrontationally on the pavement/people who complain about tourists/pubs that are not pubs/does anyone learn anything in schools these days anyway?/ditto universities/what happened to all the proper jobs, houses, people, music, books, films, clothes, haircuts, roads etc etc et fucking cetera.

See also pomposity.

nu-style beanie hat wearers/fixed-wheel cyclists

you are the lost lovechild of mark E smith and i salute you.

I hear exactly the same argument from non-North-Americans who spell 'arse' the North American way.

This makes total sense to me, actually, if you're using the word in a totally American way, like Charlie says: I'd certainly cringe to see Brits talking about grabbing some fish and a big-arse pile of chips.

(I'm not sure how else anyone would deploy that argument, unless they were under the impression Americans invented asses, an impression I guess I could imagine a British person developing.)

It's in the pronunciation.

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GREAT IS NOT AN ADVERB

grates.

"Less than half of lenders" or "Fewer than half of lenders"? Is the countability of lenders negated by casting the whole thing as a fraction?

Good question. I'd say no, and go for fewer. But context might decide for you?

This was discussed just over a year ago up-thread: 2 November 2007! I'd usually use "less", but agree that context decides.

fewer than half of all lenders sounds best?

I'd say "less" because it sounds less assy.

They're individuals rather than a mass of goop, so I'd say fewer.