Why do people rag on Steely Dan's "Gaucho" so much?

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first four > aja > guacho > the night fly > royal scam

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 12 January 2006 04:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I've recently re-assessed my relationship to Steely. in other words, I've actually listened to them again with some degree of real attention. there is, too, a rather poorly written but informative book on SD, from Omnibus Press, I believe, and you start to see how much pure steely willpower those guys had, how fucking professional they were about making music, and how hard they drove themselves and their musicians. all of which I admire. so I guess my take is that Becker and Fagen were all about *not* letting the music breathe very much, that seems to be their goal, with the inevitable guitar solos and, sure, the amazing Steve Gadd drumming on "Aja" (the song) standing in for their repressed feelings. so, seems to me they were pretty damned smart. or just that they fit my theory of pop fairly well.

anyway, I rank their LPs thusly: Countdown>Pretzel>Can't Buy>Katy>Aja>Gaucho>Scam. "Scam" is just too fucking dried out for me, even though "Kid Charlemagne" and "Haitian Divorce" are ace. But "Haitian" sure pales beside August Darnell's "Annie, I'm Not Your Daddy," while "Kid" ain't as good a bye-bye-counterculture song as the one they wrote for Thomas Jefferson Kaye, "American Lovers." that's ze rub, to my mind.

and their last two, I can't get into them at all, although they're certainly well-done and nastily funny, sexist, middle-aged lust and its discontents, whatever. maybe some day I'll change my mind about them too.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

I can't really explain it, Alfred. All I can say is that I'm a big fan of SD and I bought Nightfly expecting to like it, played it several times, and found it totally unengaging. I literally don't like a single track on it. Mind you, apart from Deacon Blue I don't really much care for anything on Aja either (and even Deacon Blue gets sickly after a while). Musically I find plenty to admire on these albums, maybe Chuck Rainey's bass playing on Aja most of all, but put it all together and it still doesn't add up to music that can move me emotionally.

I didn't hear Gaucho until much later, because I thought (wrongly I now suspect) that my problem with Aja and Nightfly was their too glossy production; Gaucho had the reputation of being more of the same but with weaker songs, so I avoided it. Something must have persuaded me to give it a try, and while there are jazz-fusion-lite meanderings I don't care for, I do like a lot of the album. Babylon Sister especially is one of those rare tracks that when the track finishes I just want to hear it again.

― frankiemachine, Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:11 (eighteen years ago) link

the lost gaucho album >>>>>> gaucho

thanks "friend"

― jaxon (jaxon), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:16 (eighteen years ago) link

SD themselves seemed to perpetuate the notion that Gaucho is subpar. They hate it cuz the dissapointing album sales and the fact that they had to recut all their favo songs cuz some kid engineer lost the original tapes. Im sure this all has been mentioned upthread but im sneaking this post in at work and cant read it all. To say this is better than the Royal Scam is pretty messed up though, Ian.

― howell huser (chaki), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:24 (eighteen years ago) link

ahh shit hook me up, jaxon

― howell huser (chaki), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:25 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't know if this is everything. some songs are similar, but way less polished. an instrumental.

www.megaupload.com/?d=794BE365

― jaxon (jaxon), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I think it's totally better than the Royal Scam! Lyrically much better, musically more fun and pleasant...Royal Scam is the one that always felt more like a contractual obligation to me, a couple of good tracks and a lot of (still better than anybody else's stuff, mind, but the standards are different with SD) filler

― Mr Straight Toxic (ghostface), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

thats just nuts.

― howell huser (chaki), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:10 (eighteen years ago) link

scam's still my favorite. on gaucho, hell is temperate and pleasantly sunny all year round. on scam, it's HOTTTTTT. it burns.

― 2 columbus circle in 1964 (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

best cover art too

― howell huser (chaki), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Jody Scam is seriously yr favorite? I cannot understand this at all

mine in order: Aja just barely edging out Countdown to Ecstasy, then Katy Lied, then Gaucho though I can go back & forth on the order there - then Pretzel Logic, Royal Scam & Can't Buy a Thrill

admittedly I've listened less to Scam since my first big I-only-wanna-listen-to-SD phase circa 1989 so I should probably go look at it again...I seriously can't imagine ranking it higher than Katy Lied though, c'mon, that thing is the mid-period monster

― Mr Straight Toxic (ghostface), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:35 (eighteen years ago) link

katy is all kinds of lovely and was my favorite for a long time, but scam is a freaking amazon.

― 2 columbus circle in 1964 (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:40 (eighteen years ago) link

really two against nature is the only one i don't listen to.

― yvette yreka (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Katy Lied is probably better than Scam, even though I say I like Scam better...kinda like how I tell people I like Precense better than Led Zep IV even though I know it's not true.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:16 (eighteen years ago) link

haha, the liner notes on the cd talk about hitting on chicks that are all coked out and work at some restaurant

Ha ha, never seen those, but great minds, jaxon...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:31 (eighteen years ago) link

I feel you Matt - Presence gets off to such a roaring start, and has such awesome sleeve art, that you wanna give it extra credit - in fairness, "Kid Charlemagne" is one of my top ten SD songs

― Mr Straight Toxic (ghostface), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm gonna get some cheap wine and have myself a little steely dan listening party to-nite.

― yvette yreka (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Don't forget the hookers!

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I feel you Matt - Presence gets off to such a roaring start, and has such awesome sleeve art, that you wanna give it extra credit - in fairness, "Kid Charlemagne" is one of my top ten SD songs

kid charmalagne is the achilles last stand of steely dan!

i do like prescense and royal scam alot though....i even like two against nature...sort of...but there's something wierd about the melodies and chord changes that grates on me....i'm not musically knowledgable enough to tell you what that is...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:40 (eighteen years ago) link

kid charmalagne is the achilles last stand of steely dan!

Apt comparison!

Countdown to Ecstasy and Katy Lied seem like their masterworks.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 21:57 (eighteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

The Cuervo Gold... The fine colum-bi-aaan...

― Baaderonixx, born again in Xixax (baaderonixx), Friday, 10 February 2006 11:46 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm on my way to bed; just put "Gaucho" and "Ethiopiques 4" in the changer. "Broken Flowers," anyone?

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Friday, 10 February 2006 12:37 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I've now come to the conclusion that 'Gaucho' is actually their finest moment. Apart from 'My Rival', the album just goes from one highlight to another. It's less precious than 'Aja' and really captures their resignation to the L.A. exile (although by then they were back in NYC). It's the only album where I can really feel an overall mindframe coming out of all the separate parts. Also, by then they'd dropped the pretense of distancing themselves from their character sketches and the whole thing achieves some metaphysical poignancy. "Illegal fun, under the sun, boys..."

― Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Thursday, 2 March 2006 13:26 (eighteen years ago) link

i never liked the line "illegal fun."

― Autonomous University of Zacatecas (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 2 March 2006 13:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I prefer Gaucho to Aja too. There's a difference between writing about exhaustion and sounding exhausted.

I can't listen to "Third World Man" without tearing up - the only song in their vast catalogue that unnerves me.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 2 March 2006 14:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't really understand the crazy love for 3rdWM but I feel there's some lyrical nuance I'm not getting. What's so emotional in some survivalist's tale?

― Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Thursday, 2 March 2006 14:54 (eighteen years ago) link

"My Rival" is awesome!

The whole album is awesome!

The only thing that would make it better would be making it a double album with Aja.

― Dan (Loving The Dan) Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 March 2006 15:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Hah - I wouldn't have thought you were a Dan fan!

― Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Thursday, 2 March 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

The Dan has got all the virtues Dan admires: musical virtuosity, tonal complexity, etc.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 2 March 2006 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

...and the sleaze

― Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Thursday, 2 March 2006 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I am kind of shocked that someone would assume I wouldn't go gaga over Steely Dan!

― Dan (Previous Two Posts OTM) Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 March 2006 18:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i was furniture shopping and this came on and it seemed really bad. but i liked it still!

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Thursday, 2 March 2006 18:58 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...

Babylon Sisters is my all time favorite SD song. Man there is such a sick groove present in this song! Such smooth lyrics on such a sharp story! The words say 'love' but the music says 'sex'! i sometimes go into convulsions listening to the last minute of the song! i love it! the chords changes are just so dark and amazing! A+ work on this tune....and basically every other song theyve done!

― mfc51, Sunday, 2 April 2006 05:05 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...

I'm 18 so I get to listen to all the dan albums with virgin ears. with this in mind gaucho is great! Personally, I see this as a loose concept album in the fact that it was so greatly influenced by the west coast surroundings. I think of LA when i think of gaucho; slick and inviting on the outside, dark and sinister below, but above all else smooth. if aja caught steely dan in the transition between coasts, gaucho is the end result of two new york guys in lala land.

― Reilly Barratt, Sunday, 23 April 2006 16:17 (eighteen years ago) link

i've always thought that "time out of mind" might be one of the best pop songs every written. it is supreme. "tonight when i chase the dragon/ the water may change to cherry wine" makes me laugh every time.

― kevinod (odtron5000), Sunday, 23 April 2006 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

more interesting: why do the phishead hippies *love* royal scam? is it the nasty funk on charlemagne? ain't their greatest record.

― kevinod (odtron5000), Sunday, 23 April 2006 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

hippies love Royal Scam? really? can I see some evidence of that? it's easily in my top 3 Dan albums, sometimes my favorite, but it doesn't seem to get as much love from a lot of fans, so I'm kinda glad it's at least popular in certain circles.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Sunday, 23 April 2006 17:57 (eighteen years ago) link

it gets *tons* of love on therhombus.com, some jamband-oriented bb. they had some thread a while back about it, and everyone kept mentioning royal scam and charlemagne. i think it's because of the clav funk and phish's golden age (imo) is 97 when they were deep in funk, even though it wasn't funk except that they just had envelope filters and a clavinet. anyway, yeah, big love for scam on that board.

― kevinod (odtron5000), Sunday, 23 April 2006 18:03 (eighteen years ago) link

kevinod your totally right, time out of mind is awsome and its even funnier when you know that "chaseing the dragon is a way of takeing heroin in wich powdered heroin is burn in crumpled tin foil until its liquified at which point it squirms around in the foil (like a chinese dragon i guess) and the its inhaled through a rolled up newspaper. steely dan are crazy as shit.

― Reilly, Tuesday, 25 April 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I love royal scam its really underrated and i'm also a big phish fan as well. songs like the fez and green earings make the album pretty funky but hatian divorce is what makes the album for me

― Reilly, Tuesday, 25 April 2006 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I love royal scam its really underrated and i'm also a big phish fan as well. songs like the fez and green earings make the album pretty funky but hatian divorce is what makes the album for me.

― Reilly, Tuesday, 25 April 2006 18:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Lost Gaucho tracks? What are those like? How can I find copies of such songs?

― brianh, Sunday, 30 April 2006 12:09 (eighteen years ago) link

you can download them here: http://www.steelydanarchive.com/sounds/#gaucho
there's a few demos and alternate takes, including 3 or 4 songs that didn't make the final album.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Sunday, 30 April 2006 13:00 (eighteen years ago) link

has anyone heard grover washington jr.'s version of time out of mind? for elevator music, it's not too bad. but it's confusing that washington chooses to play the melody with a sax then have lady vox come in for the chorus. plus, it's not convincing to hear those girls singing about heroin. like, did they have to contain their laughter during the recording sesh? anyway, they should start playing it on the weather channel during the international forecast segment.

― kevinod (odtron5000), Sunday, 30 April 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Alternate universe: "Weird Al" releases first album in 1980, rides Gaucho coattails by calling his Groucho, ruins Groucho schtick for future musicians, Humpty from Digital Underground has to adopt Zeppo persona, Digital Underground goes nowhere, Tupac Shakur never gets his break, you fill in the blanks.

― O-Keigh (O-Keigh), Sunday, 30 April 2006 19:32 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

scam's still my favorite. on gaucho, hell is temperate and pleasantly sunny all year round. on scam, it's HOTTTTTT. it burns.

But that's what's so hellish about it. It's Los Fucking Angeles.

A thought I had on another thread:

T/S: The best album about LA

Guns n' Roses Appetite for Destruction or Steely Dan Gaucho? Two sides of the same coin, I think.

― sinful caesar sipped his snifter (kenan), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 01:44 (seventeen years ago) link

one month passes...

So Stylus is taking a "second look" at Gaucho today...
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/on_second_thought/steely-dan-gaucho.htm

― Baaderonixx immer wieder (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 11:44 (seventeen years ago) link

The old boy nails it.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 11:53 (seventeen years ago) link

i was certain you were referring to yourself until i checked the link.

― jinx hijinks (sanskrit), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 23:49 (seventeen years ago) link

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