― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
This reminds me of Nitsuh's comments on the 'Is Bush An Idiot' thread. He wanted the people who voted Nader to outline their longterm vision for the positive outcome a Nader vote might bring. And he got frustrated because nobody seemed even to have thought in those terms.
Here I'm actually being somewhat Naderite, in a sense, and saying that I believe the word 'fag' can be totally revalued *for the whole community* within a few short years, and that this victory, which I believe is both important and inevitable, is worth the short-term risk (of Democrats losing votes, in the Nader case, or of a peceived -- but illusory -- temporary *increase* in homophobia, in this case).
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
I refuse to pick one of Momus's hypothetical scenarios because they're fucking stupid. I freely invite Momus to walk into a room filled with my relatives or my wife's relatives and start throwing the word "nigger" around because he desperately needs the beatdown.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
Sterling's name has never been more appropriate
― RickyT (RickyT), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 15:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
Why should it? What's so great about that word?
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 16:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
Jesus, Momus, you can't claim both that the usage is for the scene, and is being carefully handled by licensed word-smiths, AND it's for the community (which I'm assuming is at least the 90% of the US outside NY), where it will bring great healing. Make your mind up.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
also, since when did stockholm syndrome redeem a word?
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
We (and by 'we' I mean fags, non-fags, art fags and Vice readers) are a lot quicker and more creative when it comes to messing with language than Bushites in pickup trucks.
You are, at very best, not paying enough attention to the people you speak for.
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
Momus, have you seen Kentucky Fried Movie?
― Andy K (Andy K), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
It starts on the scene (and it's not all thought-out, it just happens because of stuff like camp and irony) and spreads out from there. I don't see any contradiction here.
Momus, this whole "blunting" word-reclamation idea is like a man telling his wife that if he rapes her very carefully every night it won't be as terrible when someone does it for real.
Nabisco, who's being silly now? Come on, what did you make of my reference to your point on the Nader / Bush thread?
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
So yes, I think the Nader-thread comparison is spot-on: what is this meant to accomplish, beyond making money tittillating people by saying words they don't think they're allowed to hear?
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― RickyT (RickyT), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
So let's also add that his "recontextualization" scheme is preaching to a choir -- it has no effect on the people who claim these as actually-hateful words apart from giving them the impression that they're completely right and even the fags and the niggers can see that.
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― suzy (suzy), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 16:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
If a person uses it in conversation with me it depends again. If they're not black, well, firm request and if they don't stop or seem to relish it I usually stop talking to them but this happens rarely. If they're black, as I said, most black people who use the word still often don't do it talking to people who aren't, and hardly anybody really minds of I ask 'em not to. I mean it's a respect thing. If I respect you, I don't wanna hear language that disrespects yourself. (er, grammar allowing for clarity of thought there). & if you respect me, you're just sensitive to that whether or not I go through a whole round of argument with you on the generalities of it.
Also two days ago I was driving with my girlfriend and her little sister (13) who allovasudden starts quoting Busta Rhymes lyrics and uses the word and we both just got sort of shocked and gave her a talking to. The thing that she knows better than to ever use the word to refer to herself, but she doesn't quite get what it means in a broader social context, just that it's somehow "forbidden". She's also got a nearly completely white group of friends and is in somewhat of a bubble as to what it means to be black beyond a suburban jr. high.
I don't know the point of that story.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
i mean, is it primarily because you would fear for your safety or because you would fear offending somebody?
― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
Do you use it, though?
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 17:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
I mean like that's like if I say "I'm gonna kill you" and you say "man, stop threatening me" and I'm all like "no way, if I meant it I would have said 'going to' instead of 'gonna' because the two are completely different"
haha graham to thread!
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
gah sterling got in while i was posting, one moment dude!!
― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
is it because there's still work to do? i mean, do we need oprah to start referring to martha stewart as "my nigga" before this wonderful utopian cleansing can begin? and if she did, and the word became as ordinary and as torpid as "lampshade", would that be a good thing?
― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― geeta (geeta), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
― s trife (simon_tr), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
U+K! U+K! U+K! U+K!
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 October 2002 17:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 14 October 2002 17:51 (twenty-one years ago) link