Vampire Weekend; Arctic Monkeys of 2008?

I'm curious to know what these terms mean now.

Good.

I am unfamiliar with most things, including music theory and the American music business.

Pinefox I submit to you that if your first exposure to Tigermilk had been checking out B&S's Myspace and listening skeptically to a couple of samples, it wouldn't have left much of an impression with you either

My first exposure to that record didn't make much impression - it was on a tape, taped from another tape, taped from some distant vinyl copy or whatever. For a long time I listened to it over and over, notably while washing up (a way I have listened to much music) and it did frustratingly little for me. I felt B&S were overrated on the whole (not least because some of my favourite people adored them so).

Then one day I took a long bus ride, and listened to TM on my walkman, and it was transformed for me; and to an extent, perhaps, my whole view of B&S was radically improved.

No reason why anyone else should be interested in that story; just a response to your submission.

I guess that you (as I said above, in a way, re Nabisco) are coming at the B&S vs VW comparison (made by Nabisco, I think) from a very very different place from most pop fans I know. Most of them would find it unbelievable that anyone could rate VW over B&S (B&S at their early, fragile best, indeed). This is not an idiosyncratic stance on my part, it's a very consensual one, and a consensus in which I am content to remain.

I think I may have misquoted Nabisco earlier, and the other technical term he used was 'the clean channels'.

actually, it's probably an equipment reference, not a biz one

many ppl disdain a fragile sound. VW are far from exclusively 'pop', if distinctions are insisted upon. aside, are you familiar with Don Lennon?

I did hear him once or twice online. I will listen to him more, on that site, if you think I should.

no, that is not necessary

I thought that Elif Batuman article on Vampire Weekend was fascinating.

I thought it was pretty good except for when she got on the wrong train or decided to be a film critic

I think it was clear that her take on Wes Anderson was meant to be not the view of a professional film critic, but more of an idiosyncratic personal response, in keeping with the overall theme of the piece.

Never thought envy was part of the Pinefox's hidden arsenal.

I'm not gonna forgive her for being rong because she isn't a professional. It also wasn't that idiosyncratic. Or that rong. It was frustrating because in its misreading (to me) of WA - he makes live-action cartoons, not realistic evocations - it suggested a misunderstanding (to me) of the 'vibe' concept, which is pretty concerned with tactile reality.

Oh stop sending me to sleep with yr dreary not-one-of-us protectionism, we've killed the professionals, deal with it.

waht

I think her criticism of Wes Anderson is not that he's unrealistic or cartoonish, but that (esp. in his later work) the exotic background doesn't connect with the foreground characters in any meaningful way.

I can't contribute much to the Vampire Weekend vs. Belle and Sebastian conversation, since the only Belle and Sebastian I've tried to listen to was some of their later work, which sounded a bit too twee and labored to my taste - the sort of thing carried off more effortlessly by Camera Obscura on their most recent album. And it's possible that the cultural "vibes" (to use Batuman's term) evoked by the somewhat fragmented and kaleidoscopic Vampire Weekend lyrics may not translate as well across the Atlantic.

I think her criticism of Wes Anderson is not that he's unrealistic or cartoonish,

right, I said that she fails to understand that he is those things

I don't see how the notion that Anderson is cartoonish undercuts the critique that the exotic settings in his films are ultimately found to be arbitrary and sterile. In other words, embracing his shortcomings as an aesthetic choice doesn't change the fact that they are shortcomings. Whereas pop song seems better suited to the task of organically interweaving the exotic flourishes with emotion and visceral pulse, as Vampire Weekend do in their better moments.

Wes Anderson has a pulse?

No, sorry if that was poorly worded. I meant that pop song (and specifically Vampire Weekend) does.

I think the problem is now we're in a time where people take pop and pop culture way too friggin seriously; a million essays are out on Vampire Weekend, a band that gets more critical attention than if a lost Pasolini film emerged.

"But, taking pop seriously is like ... so progressive! If you're against it, you're just some bloody rockist." (language borrowed from 2004, but the attitude still operates fully).

The Pinefox surely knows what eighth notes and clean channels are, though maybe not what I'm using them to refer to here:

people are listening to this for well-made happy eighth-note indie

It's a rock standard, but in particular it's a basic, deep-rooted component of indie rock, since the punk days, to have bass & guitars clicking along playing eighth notes. (Often the guitar plays power chords, or muted power chords, and the bass plays the root note of the chord.) And of course you vary from that point -- you omit some or double some into sixteenths to create a rhythm -- but it's still the ultimate basic. The bulk of punk songs do this, new-wave is all about it, New Order guitar work usually revolves around it, Pixies bass lines revolve around it, the Strokes' "Hard to Explain" does it ... you know what I'm talking about, right? This is a simple, base-level, building-block component of what a certain type of music sounds like, and so when bands do it, it seems to appeal to familiar, comfortable, fundamental pleasure centers in people who happen to enjoy that kind of music -- the same way basic old-school boom-bap beats do for hip-hop.

Vampire Weekend don't actually play that eighth-note grid all that often, and when they do, the drummer usually works around it, but the moments where they ram it home (like "Campus") have that simple/basic/"clean" quality. It also seems to undergird their writing even when they're not strictly doing it.

they'd be neither the first nor the last people in the world to hear a couple African pop compilations and think "those are such pleasant guitar sounds, let's use the clean channels from now on."

Guitar amplifiers often have two channels to choose between: the "clean" channel just amplifies your guitar, and usually sounds smooth and chiming, while the other channel adds gain or overdrive, and makes your guitar sound fuzzy and distorted, as in most(?) rock music. Vampire Weekend exclusively use REALLY clean guitar sounds; there aren't even pedal-effect sounds to notice; and it's incredibly hard to imagine them using a distorted/effected sound in any way whatsoever. One would assume they've picked this up from African pop, a lot of varieties of which are also built around very clean-toned guitar work. Especially because that clean, complex guitar work is one of the main features of lots of west-African pop that's immediately appealing and recognizable to western rock listeners: it's something a young guitar player will hear and be liable to think "wow, that's a great sound, and I'd love to be able to play like that." (Cf loads of English indie guitar players in the 1980s, like Johnny Marr.)

That clean guitar sound has always been a signature in Western music, particularly indie... I always thought it was from that jangly 60s stuff, which is where basically every culture took it from, and why it appeared again in the 80s.

Oh, totally, that's the bulk of it -- but with guys like Marr you hear a lot of arpeggios and finger work that point a bit in the direction of Africa. (It's also worth keeping in mind that the time around 1980 had African pop making a vogue splash in the US/UK.)

P.S.: Why the eighth notes and cleanliness matter = one part of VW's appeal that's sometimes hard to articulate is the way they cut back to a lot of very simple and natural qualities in a way that somehow seems (to some of us) refreshing, interesting, and even novel, rather than just conventional or boring or content-free. "Basic" indie-rock structure, incredibly naturalistic and uncomplicated recording (very not-stylized, you know?), small number of sounds playing a small number of usually simple lines, a certain tidiness ... (I am aware that these are precisely the qualities many of you find bothersome about them, yes)

Nabisco, thank you for taking the trouble to try to explain the terms that you used, which so many people in this world are so often not prepared to do.

I can certainly understand a difference between a clean sound and a distorted sound, let's say, on a guitar, and from the VW I've heard, yes, it sounds a clean guitar sound -- though I don't know anything about any 'two channels' (I guess I have never used a sufficiently sophisticated amplifier). As for this clean sound being Marr-esque - in that case, isn't it quite mainstream and not much of a gesture? (ie: Burt Stanton, of all people, has a point?) But Marr's sound was laden with effects (if I knew exactly what they were then perhaps I would have tried harder to achieve them myself), so I'm not sure he fits your no-FX model.

re. eighth notes - well, I know most of the bands you mention in your paragraph, but no, I don't know what an eighth note is, or what part of their sound that would refer to. I am not familiar with that concept.

That clean guitar sound has always been a signature in Western music, particularly indie... I always thought it was from that jangly 60s stuff, which is where basically every culture took it from.

My favorite VW songs are not the ones where the straight-ahead, eighth-note basslines are most prominent. I like the ska-inflected beats with more syncopation to them - "A-Punk", "Oxford Comma" or "M-79" for instance.

Addendum to that last one: I mean, I'm not convinced that early electric Mbaqanga musicians (Makgona Tsohle Band) were emulating American surf rock sounds, and they certainly weren't psychically fortelling Byrds-style "jangle". That clean, chiming, upbeat sound seems like something organic and distinctly African to me.

It's more than just clean, distortion-free amplification though - I think it's the type of picked melody lines, as distinct from strummed or fingered chords that makes VW's guitar sound African.

Also, the sunny major keys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_note

^^ what O.Nate is saying. I am not under the impression that either African players or indie kids invented clean guitar sounds -- I'm saying there is a particular tone and style that people recognize from various threads of African pop, and many a western guitar player has heard that, been taken with the feel of it, and tried to capture some small aspect of same in his/her own playing

(and obviously any one of you here could immediately tell the difference between an African pop player, a guy playing clean-toned jazz, and an indie kid drawing vague stylistic inspiration from either of the above)

How can a major key be 'sunny'?

As always, that is not a sarcastic or aggressive question - two things that I dislike. I realize that we all use adjectives to describe pop, impressionistically; I have surely used the word 'sunny' myself, and I am not sure that I could explain it if challenged. But it seems odd, actually, to use it about a key. Any major key can presumably take you to a series of minor chords, within that key - would it still be sunny? And can one major chord (G, or D, or whatever) make for a more sunny key than another?

I read the eighth-note link, as best I could - and as a matter of fact, implausibly perhaps, I used to study that kind of thing as a little boy; I could read music and I took theoretical exams. A long time ago, and of course I know less now than I did then. But I don't see much connection between the content of that page and what Nabisco was talking about above.

But I don't see much connection between the content of that page and what Nabisco was talking about above.
-- pinefox

Repeated eighth-note figures, picked/amplified cleanly and matched by the rhythm section, give music propulsive, hypnotic quality. Matched with bright major chords and certain types of melodies & harmonies (beyond my capacity to explain), you get the upbeat, "sunny", chiming sound that VW are borrowing from 60s/70s African pop.

What's some of the best of that African pop, you think? I heard some good stuff on FMU's Gateway to Joy a few years ago, but the names escape me.

I didn't realize that describing a major key as "sunny" would be controversial. Any attempt to describe the way music sounds in metaphorical terms will encounter the same difficulties, I guess. You could also call it "sweet" or even just "pleasant" - it probably has something to do with overtones, but I'm not really technical enough to explain it.

What's some of the best of that African pop, you think?
--burt s.

Repeated eighth-note figures, picked/amplified cleanly and matched by the rhythm section, give music propulsive, hypnotic quality. Matched with bright major chords and certain types of melodies & harmonies (beyond my capacity to explain), you get the upbeat, "sunny", chiming sound that VW are borrowing from 60s/70s African pop.

Quick disagreement on this (if it means what I think it means) -- I'm saying the repeated eighth-note propulsion is something VW are not-really-borrowing from the post-77 history of punk/new-wave/indie/alt-rock/etc., the basic keystone of tons of stuff in this vein forever and ever amen, dum dum DUM dum dum dum DUM dum dum dum DUM eternal

I'm with you, Nabisco. I'm not saying that VW are lifting the entirety of their sound from township music. Velvets/Modern Lovers/Strokes style indie pop is clearly the main inspiration, and I agree that, rythmically and vocally, that's where they're coming from. I'm just talking about maybe 50% of the guitar sound (the "African" part).

I think if people cruise by the iTunes store and check out the King Sunny Ade albums "Juju Music" or "Synchro System" for thirty seconds they will hear "that" guitar sound which is instantly familiar if you dig this style.

There are probably tons of micro-detailed specifics to different regions of Africa and different eras of gear but as a genre-specific sound/style/wayofplaying/technology manifold this one is pretty instantly recognizable.

dum dum DUM dum dum dum DUM dum dum dum DUM
--Nabisco

because everyone's jumping everybody eeeeelse's train

Drew OTM WR2 King Sunny Ade (and the singularity/recognizability of the basic style).

Ha, that's precisely why I found it strange to see (e.g.) Christgau scanning critics about their specific Africa knowledge: I don't doubt that VW have learned about African pop in some detail, but its effect on their sound and their listeners is still that generalized "you know, that smooth, sparkly African guitar sound, from African stuff." (The fact that you can find versions/evidence of it stretching the entire length of sub-Saharan Africa and down to the cape = a good sign of that generalization.)

Haha I used to listen to King Sunny Ade during the year where I worked at the record store next to Columbia

You said that upthread, Nabisco, when you perhaps implied that they heard the music from you.

I agree, anyway, with your belief that VW's knowledge of African music may well be slight or vague. Or at least (as you now say), that their listeners' may well be. I am struck, in these discussions, by how much extraordinary expertise on African music appears. It's odd, because I'm not sure I know anyone who knows anything about African music, save a) an African colleague and b) Tom Ewing.

O.Nate, I agree that songs in major keys often sound sunny, and I went out of my way to say that I often use such terms without knowing what I mean - certainly in a technical sense. I was just asking whether you thought that VW's keys (rather than the riffs, or the songs as a whole) could be 'sunny'. Perhaps they can.

I don't doubt that VW have learned about African pop in some detail
-- nabisco

Does it matter how deep his knowledge is? Or the band's listeners? I mean, I'm a VERY casual, culturally distant fan of yesteryear's African guitar pop. But I still instantly recognized what VW's guitarist was doing and where (in a general sense) he was getting his inspiration from.

they sound like they learned about afropop from yamaha keyboard rhythm presets

most of the afropop stuff is in the guitar; the keybs are more faux-classical