The Power Of Nightmares/Adam Curtis

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I was wondering that too, I'd really like to see that.

Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I got it off UKN0va a few months ago.

Ark Hopping (avoid80), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, and the BBC site now has a selected list of music used in the programmes.

Ark Hopping (avoid80), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

This is pretty interesting:

Adam Curtis on Cannes and "Last Days

Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:34 (eighteen years ago) link

The Cannes news is such good news! And condensing it into a single film is a fantastic idea. There was a lot of repetition in the miniseries necessitated by the fact that people had gone a week between episodes and needed a refresher.

I still feel that Curtis didn't spend enough time talking about who benefits from these official nightmares, and how.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:07 (eighteen years ago) link

(He says in the intro to each ep that his documentary will do that, but I never felt that it did, beyond pointing out a small coterie of politicians who became powerful.)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
I was watching this again last night and couldn't help thinking about all this more today. Also someone above asked for soundtrack info:

Music

* Title theme: "The Big Ship" on Another Green World by Brian Eno
* Incidental: "Becalmed" and "In Dark Trees" on Another Green World by Brian Eno
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "Citizen Kane", film score by Bernard Herrmann, 1941.
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "The Ipcress File", by John Barry
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion", by Ennio Morricone
* Part 1 credits: "Baby, It's Cold Outside" by Margaret Whiting and Johnny Mercer
* Part 2 opening: "Also Sprach Zarathustra"
* "I've Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle" (possibly by Singer-Gene Autry; Music-Joseph Lilley;Lyrics-Ranke Loesser, c1942)
* Afghan war: "Colours" by Donovan
* Part 3 credits: "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" by B.J. Thomas

I Named Veal (nordicskilla), Thursday, 7 July 2005 17:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Eno!

I Named Veal (nordicskilla), Thursday, 7 July 2005 17:01 (eighteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...
what do people think of this programme now?

Living in no TV land, I have never seen it.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Still fantastic. I would love to hear word if the feature-length version Curtis edited for Cannes has found a distributor. The clock is ticking.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:20 (eighteen years ago) link

There's an excellent article in this month's Prospect taking this programme apart very carefully (although it's not entirely negative). Highly recommended.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:23 (eighteen years ago) link

is it online?

i haveta say, the 'AQ doesn't exist' line looks a bit thin now. i was never sure why leo strauss was such a big figure in the show. is he more important than, i dunno, hayek or milton friedman?

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I still haven't seen the third/final episode and saw the first one for the first time only a fortnight ago but got all three via bittorrent months ago.

It still amazed me about Kissinger, how rational and beacon-like he was presented as being, but then I don't know that much about him and so the 'convenience' of this series results in one wanting it to consist of twelve hour-long parts or something.

Neocon motto: "Occam's Razor is booooolsheeeet, plus Occam sounds suspiciously Arabic"

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:33 (eighteen years ago) link

What about the antidote, "The New Al Qaeda", that has been showing over the last couple of weeks. Much less flashy/more boring, but quite solid, I think. I found out a lot of stuff about Madrid that I didn't know. It is by somebody Taylor.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:42 (eighteen years ago) link

It got a mention (IE a bit of a savaging) on Freaky Trigger

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:47 (eighteen years ago) link

that FT review kind of sums up my problems with TPON. it was very well made TV, which made everybody forget about the fact the argument was rather contrived.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:52 (eighteen years ago) link

that's a good article. very solid. this is appropriate:

"In fact, the Islamist terrorist threat to the United States today largely emanates from Europe, not from domestic sleeper cells or, as is popularly imagined, the graduates of Middle Eastern madrasas, functional idiots who can do little more than read the Koran. Reid is British, Al Qaeda member Zacarias Moussaoui is French and the 9/11 pilots became militant in Hamburg. The attacks in Madrid last year that killed 191, and the assassination of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, demonstrate that men animated by Al Qaeda's worldview have recently conducted significant acts of terrorism in Europe, a trend that is likely to accelerate as continued heavy Muslim immigration into Europe collides with widespread racism to create a population of alienated Muslims who often feel that no matter how much money they make, or how long their families have been in the country, as Pakistanis in London they are never quite British, or as Algerians in Paris they are not quite French, or as Moroccans in Madrid they can never be really Spanish. These are not powerful nightmares; they are a reality, a view that Curtis may finally come around to when a significant terrorist attack is carried out in London, which British authorities regard as inevitable."

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:55 (eighteen years ago) link

which made everybody forget about the fact the argument was rather contrived.

maybe but with so much to condense into under 3 hours there's only so much you can mention, and considering how contrived Qubt's and Strauss's ideas were or rather how badly they were put into practice...

I should hold off until I see the final episode though clearly.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Adam Curtis's argument that al Qaeda doesn't exist in the sense of being something that can be combatted in the way one combats an organisation, still makes sense to me. When I hear terrorism "experts" one day confidently tell me that al Qaeda has a command structure resembling a pyramid and others (as on The New al Qaeda tell me that it's a loose network of largely autonomous cells, then you start to realise how easy it is to see the same reality, and importantly in the context of Curtis's thesis, present the same reality in very different ways.

Why does this thesis now look thinner than it did before? Because bombings have happened on British soil?

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:02 (eighteen years ago) link

I quite like the use of Cockney voices. I await Bob Hoskins as Bin Laden. Otherwise, I think Carsmile is probably right, in a way. I don't know why he googleproofed Al Qaeda though. Much more impressive is Alba's insistence on a lower case a for al.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:04 (eighteen years ago) link

capital A makes it seem like a person. Al's a name with cuddly connotations in US culture (er, Al Bundy...Alfalfa...Paul Simon..that's it).

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:07 (eighteen years ago) link

it's a great programme, maybe it just needs to be one among others, and more narrowly focussed. while i think it's realtively straightforward to tell the story of the islamist movement, accounting for the big political shift in american politics, which curtis boils down to the influence of strauss, is a far more difficult task. if the neocons exaggerated the threat of the ussr, you can't easily avoid the fact that there was a threat there. the invasion of afghanistan actually happened, after all. it's not curtis' fault that he can't grasp the history of american foreign policy in the confines of the show, but it's become such a totem-programme there are dangers of people repeating it as fact. i have certainly heard the 'AQ is a phantasy' thing repeated.

alba -- yeah, because the attacks have continued. also, i've never really seen AQ presented as a command-and-control organization like the IRA. but cell-like structures are hardly unusual -- FLN and the french resistance both had them. so does the cia, in some ways -- agents don't know other agents. there's no contradiction between being pyramidal (which AQ is -- money comes from somewhere!) and cell-like.

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:08 (eighteen years ago) link

But that article also says AQ doesn't exist! It just says that it did for a while, before being subsumed back into the "militant jihadist ideological movement"

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:15 (eighteen years ago) link

But there are cells and there are cells. Cells deliberately set up that way to avoid people bringing down the whole organisation. And cells that are only 'cells' in the sense that we are all living in cells. You can't see an organisation? Call it a 'cell-like' one and it starts to look devious and scary etc.

The third episode again repeats a lot of what's gone before, steve. But at the end, it has interesting stuff about Blair et al. being obsessed with the verdict of history, in the sense of being neurotic about not having dealt with something (ie. Islamist terrorism) that later is shown to engulf our society. An obsession with the worst case scenario. Fear of getting it wrong isn't a motor of confident and successful leadership.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:15 (eighteen years ago) link

i have certainly heard the 'AQ is a phantasy' thing repeated.

What's wrong with repeating things? Have you investigated al Qaeda at first hand yourself? No - you are repeating other things (that it is "cell-like" etc.) And that's fine.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:17 (eighteen years ago) link

there's probably some crossover in, well, everything, there, andrew.

alba -- yeah, i can see that but there are links between the cells, example: funding, and training camps. 'follow the money' and that.

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:18 (eighteen years ago) link

The obsession with wanting to have an omniscient view from the future so that we don't get things wrong is a defining tendency of our times, I think. I definitely have it myself, in some respects. I kind of feel like it comes from people not having seen the dangers of fascism before the holocaust. But I'm off on a tangent now.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:22 (eighteen years ago) link

Isn't the basic premise of the NEW AQ that it isn't a phantasy, but that it has changed enough to make it possible for it to look like a phantasy? Or something like that anyway.

I'm ever so hungry.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:23 (eighteen years ago) link

lots of people saw the dangers of fascism before the holocaust, though.

xpost

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Incidentally, the Prospect version of that article differs slightly from The Nation one in that it also looks at the current series discussed upthread and the London bombs. it's worth forking out for.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:25 (eighteen years ago) link

lots of people saw the dangers of fascism before the holocaust, though.

But overall, as a society, we didn't. Not enough to do anything about it. And I'm thinking about how eugenics was such a respectable and popular notion among intellectuals etc.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:30 (eighteen years ago) link

in france a lot of regular people were concerned enough to form apopular front against fascism in '36-8; there was a pretty large 'body of opinion' against it in england, the intelligentsia was predominantly anti-fascist, etc. no-one thought that the holocaust would happen, to my knowledge. of course, most of this meant alliance with the soviet union -- perhaps the equivalent of anti-islamist figures like christopher hitchens allying with the bush administration today. the *real* orwellian move, then, is refusing both bush [stalin] *and* islamism.

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:37 (eighteen years ago) link

the intelligentsia was predominantly anti-fascist

Really? Most of the literary intelligentsia seem to have been pretty much on the Right.

Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Really? Most of the literary intelligentsia seem to have been pretty much on the Right.

really? orwell, connolly, isherwood, auden, day lewis, spender, fucking leavis, greene, green, the left book club...?

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:43 (eighteen years ago) link

"fucking leavis alone, ya bass!"

Just a little humour there, to lighten our load.

Prospect is £4.50! Is the rest of it any good? Last time I got it it was Billy Bragg and Gordon Brown talking about Britishness. I thought it poor.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, I was thinking more of Wyndham Lewis, Eliot, Pound, that bunch of clowns

Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:57 (eighteen years ago) link

who? never heard of 'em.

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:59 (eighteen years ago) link

All monthly magazines are £4.50 these days aren't they? I subscribe and think it's worth it. The arts stuff is a bit iffy, but it's very good on politics.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm always too indignant to actually pay for online text, though if I was comfortable enough with reading lengthy articles online as opposed to in print (much easier on the peepers) I could be persuaded to make a donation if invited to do so.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:00 (eighteen years ago) link

The Intellectuals and the Masses

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:00 (eighteen years ago) link

But anyway, I was really talking about leaders who actually made decisions, not the Bloomsbury set. Fear of being another Chamberlain.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Inside the Whale

I like the Carey book, but it's about a slightly earlier generation.

Sure, mainstream politicians in england were culpable, but the popular movement here was big -- in France, it had real potential (although things got fucked-up over Spain). In any case, the popular movement against fascism in Western Europe was far more of a genuine presence than, say, the Stop The War movement is now. People like Stafford Cripps in the Labour Party were sympathetic, and it definitely formed cadres for the reformed Labour Party of 1945.

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:08 (eighteen years ago) link

capital A makes it seem like a person. Al's a name with cuddly connotations in US culture (er, Al Bundy...Alfalfa...Paul Simon..that's it).

I've heard there is a guy in the US called Al Nino, and people periodically ring him up and complain about the weather.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:13 (eighteen years ago) link

I have a feeling that Al Qaida exists in the same way that the Animal Liberation Front does - if you want to do something that falls into the realm of what the "organisation" does, you just do it (with your mates, or whatever), and then either claim it as an Al Q act or let the media do this for you.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Al's a name with cuddly connotations in US culture (er, Al Bundy...Alfalfa...Paul Simon..that's it

Animal Liberation Front = ALF. Alf seems a pretty cuddly British name.

Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:22 (eighteen years ago) link

five months pass...
watched all this last night, there's a lot of great stuff in it. especially episodes 1 & 2.

episode 3 i thought was the weakest... i almost thought the doc should've gone right up to sept. 11 and no further, as all the post-9/11 stuff seemed quite rushed, and most of it i'd seen before. also weak: when it suddenly became about the UK--i know this is a bbc doc, but i didn't get ANY sense of how britain got involved, or how neo-conservatism got a foothold there (while neo-c's ascension in the states was clearly and patiently spelled out). it seemed like an abrupt change.

also interesting that the word 'oil' wasn't used once in the program. obv i understand that curtis wasn't taking the syriana approach and that he didn't want to open a whole other kettle of words... but it still begged the question.

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 7 January 2006 17:15 (eighteen years ago) link

yes, quite; it could have done with an additional episode tracing Britain's position in all of this... looking at the legacy of the Thatcher-Regan years/'relationship', and examining New Labour's relation to 'neo conservatism'.

Tom May (Tom May), Saturday, 7 January 2006 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Has anyone who has seen the 3 episodes seen the film? Worth watching?

MitchellStirling (MitchellStirling), Saturday, 7 January 2006 17:27 (eighteen years ago) link


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