the rolling Final Crisis thread

Interesting that Jones draws Montoya without her mask--that can't possibly be an artist's error

Although Morrison's script specifically mentions that she has no face. Miscommunication, artistic license, or maybe a last-second change that isn't reflected in the script?

and oh yeah - this looks awesome. this is the first time I've been genuinely excited for a huge cross-over thing since like Operation Galactic Storm or something.

I couldn't find the script pages - are they an active control under the pages, maybe? My work has that kind of fancy internettin' disabled.

AJ: if this BENDIS SUCKS / JOHNS SUCKS thing blows up, it should go on another thread, so my last piece about JvB on this thread:

1) Continuity doesn't equal characterization (which you seem to be inferring), and it sure isn't a SUBSTITUTE for characterization (which is possibly my biggest beef wrt GJ)
2) One man's "giving a shit about continuity" is another man's "beat readers over the head with useless trivia"

above each preview page there's a line that reads "to see this page in detailed script-form (courtesy of Grant Morrison!), click here". clicking superimposes a page of script over the art. it's some crazy HTML shenanigans and probably easily blockable by work-folks.

yeah, I don't see that. I'll have to check the script pages out elsewhere.

Well, given that Jones drew all the 52 covers and was working from a full script here, I think miscommunication is unlikely...

I don't even see the art!

At least from the outside, I don't think the Final Crisis mini-series are directly tied to the actual plot of the Morrison series. They seem more like stand alone big DC Universe stories.

I think Final Crisis seems like it will have some ties back to some threads that were in 52 and Infinite Crisis. That whole thing with Libra in the DC Universe Zero seems to be maybe tied into the whole Crime Bible and Intergang thing.

Outside of Final Crisis, I know I am game for the Legion of Three Worlds story. The others maybe not so much.

There's no way to qualify this without sounding like a dick, but from what I've been told by a person who has actually read the first issue, Final Crisis has kind of a slow, moody start, and that it's very Morrison-y, but not exactly what people might expect from something called a "Crisis."

Good lord, I am sooooooo excited for Legion of Three Worlds. It's kinda ridiculous.

not exactly what people might expect from something called a "Crisis."

Sounds good to me after the last two somethings called a "Crisis".

I too am jazzed for Legion of Three Worlds. I have been reading one or two Showcase Legion stories before bed every morning and am full of good Legion thoughts and ideas and I have a FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC idea for a 30th (or 31st) Century mini-series or sub-series that would fucking culminate my entire lifelong love affair with the DCU and Ultra Boy.

Ultra Orgy On Infinite Legions?

man this better not be like Seven Soldiers

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1b/Darkseid_7s.gif/150px-Darkseid_7s.gif

Do you mean "an awesome and deeply rewarding read" or "delayed beyond ridiculousity"?

"Pissing all over everything Morrison didn't personally create"

Um...what? Did you read the same 7S as me, AJ? I mean, it's not like he had Zatanna raping and eating Vigilante or anything.

the whole New Gods thing, hence the image up thar

Well but the 7S version of the New Gods was just meant to be the facet/incarnation that Mister Miracle was interfacing with. Like, Morrison probably isn't going to be using DarkSuge in Final Crisis. Also, see the New Gods in Morrison's JLA.

I'm just saying, Morrison has had some really dumb ideas in the past

http://www.filmpeek.net/userimages/user3203_1176840940.jpg

http://captain.custard.org/league/graphics/characters/zauriel.jpg

Name me a writer that hasn't had bad ideas, and I'll bet that writer's either dead or retired (or you're a rose-colored fanboy).

Seriously. And let's be honest: Morrison has had way more (admittedly mostly underdeveloped) good ideas than 95% of people working in comics.

Also: I'd argue that Morrison's take on the Joker is one of the least dumb things about his Batman run.

that Joker issue was AIDS in comic book form

if I recall it was so bad that DC offered refunds for it

Morrison's love affair with REIMAGINATION is fucking tedious at this point...I am all for new ideas but there's plenty of room to plant new seeds with out clear cutting the forest on the adjoining lot

or something

If re-imagination isn't your thing, AJ, I'd recommend reading stories set outside of an established universe.

P.S. Your argument is kinda leaky because:

http://captain.custard.org/league/graphics/characters/zauriel.jpg = new seed.

he wanted Zauriel to be the new Hawkman, actually

someone thankfully pulled him aside and was like "what no"

Ha - yes, that would've been criminal, epsecially given the lofty heights that Hawkman has realized since then.

the St. Roch Hawkman stuff was good

I dig Hawkman's current incarnation

but no let's make Hakwman an MAGIC ANGEL who can do ANYTHING

much cooler

also I'm sorry this happens to me all the time I forget that everyone else likes the Britishing of American comics

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

Yeah, we're definitely on "agree-to-disagree" turf now.

one day I will make a big ranty post about how the British have ruined hero books

today is not that day

also I was almost-but-not-really bummed that the Reach has nothing to do with the Color Corps thing

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was <i>incredibly</i> respectful of Kirby--using Shilo Norman was a brilliant move. That's one of the things I love about Morrison's DCU work: he takes <i>everything</i> that's previously been published as canon, both story and characterization. It's like the basic rule of improv: you never ever contradict something somebody else has said, you just figure out an interesting way to build on it.

Other comics people with a notorious love affair with reimagination: Julie Schwartz (fuck a Silver Age), Stan Lee (why'd he have to go and do that to the Human Torch?), Alan Moore (Swamp Thing was so much cooler when he could turn back into Alec Holland), etc.

sorry about the badly formatted itals there...

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was incrediblyrespectful of Kirby

Right? I think AJ's argument was a pretty simplistic "they didn't look like the New Gods, therefore Morrison is pee-peeing on Kirby" thing. The only real outright change I can think of in 7S was with Klarion, but it's not like Klarion had an intricately-woven tapestry of backstory to begin with.

yeah no Darkseid as the Kingpin that wasn't a change

but I was trying to move on

HEY GUYS -- CRISIS!

List of one-shots & minis (according to the Wiki page):

Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rage of the Red Lanterns (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Requiem (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Resist (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Revelations (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge (3 issues)
Final Crisis: Submit (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (One-Shot)

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully). Only 2 announced in-stream x-overs so far -- 1 issue of JLA to coincide w/ FC #1, and 2 issues of Batman following the whole thing.

I once saw AJ Styles wrestle at a redneck bar in Georgia in 2000. He was pretty awesome.

And you could easily make an argument about British writers not quite respecting traditional American superheroics, but Morrison is pretty much the last guy you'd ever want to mention in such an argument.

Dude, AJ:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/284904726_42e39562c4.jpg?v=0

Hamburglar costume = Kingpin Darkseid, dude in Hamburglar costume = 4-REALZ Darkseid. GEDDIT?

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully).

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it? I don't think all of those minis and specials and ongoing series tie-ins were intended when it all first started, if I remember correctly.

so it's going to be like that

also I thought Countdown Arena was a great idea, and then I actually read it

so who can know how this will turn out (answer: not as shitty as Secret Invasion)

Zauriel was a bad idea? I missed the memo. He might not have been sterling, but awful? Nah.

And yeah, if you want new ideas instead of reimaginations of franchise characters, superhero comics are largely not for you. Me? I can do without a lot of 'em, but when they're done very well, there's nothing that sings like 'em.

Not hugely excited over the idea of FINAL CRISIS, but I'll give it a couple of issues should I and they be in a shop at the same time (not a given with my schedule.)

xpost

Aw, I ain't tryin' to pick fights, AJ. You just seem to be the Anti-Me, is all. Which maybe isn't a bad thing at all, depending on who you ask.

Are you British, Deric?

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it?

That'd explain the dodgy quality of most of the x-over shit, tho I can't imagine how DD & company thought books centered around Captain Carrot & obscure villians from the Giffen / DeMatteis run on Justice League EUROPE would actually sell. From what I remember from the Diamond Charts, most (if not all) Countdown minis sold about as well as a high-selling Vertigo title, which I'm guessing was a result they weren't hoping for.

xpost

Nope. I'm not even particularly much of an Anglophile. I think it's fair to say I'm a Morrison-phile, though. And, to be honest, I think his revisionist approach is, as noted above, much more reverential than most of rest of the British Wave.

I thought Extremists did a passable job of parodying Ultimate Marvel's awfulness, but otherwise, yeah, wtf

Yeah--I thought both Countdown and its crossovers were terrible.

Also! That DC Universe reprint special this week includes the first and only previous (Len Wein-written) appearance of Libra, as well as the Martian Manhunter story with the Human Flame.

I think Morrison also noted that as far as he was concerned, the first Kirby Klarion story could take place when Klarion, now master of the Kosmik Kubes or whatever those dice were, traveled to the past immediately after Seven Soldiers #1.

Also! Opening four-page scene of Legion of Three Worlds is here: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/050708legionprev.html .

Why are you giving this xenophobic moron the time of day (aside from his 'theory' abt the 'Britishing of American comics' being utter horsehit, "that Joker issue was AIDS in comic book form" = a new low for ILC)

I love all people of all nations

except for Great Britain

also I was almost-but-not-really bummed that the Reach has nothing to do with the Color Corps thing

Yeah, me too. It kinda looked like the GLC was gonna play a bigger role in the Reach's background/future, but I think Jaime dodged a ROY G. BIV bullet by not getting (deeply) wrangled into a GL x-over.

Also, yay difference of opinions!?!

Now that I think of it, yeah, Jaime is much cooler as a semi-unique character as opposed to one among many. My mind = changed.

yay difference of opinions!?!

yeah, but I've not seen anyone I know spend 18 months physically withering and turning blotchy before they die because their internal organs were unable to work with each other from reading a comic book before

Also, you seem to miss point of the cynical cruelty that is The Life Trap!

^^This. Erasing someone ends their torment - trapping them away from all they love and making them more and more miserable is a far greater punishment. Thus, he used the Omega Sanction vs the Omega Effect.

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Yeah, because Darkseid later resurrected him.

uh but Darkseid couldn't REsurrect someone if he had never existed! make sense, Tuomas.

I can't cite Kirby chapter & verse here, but:
Wiping someone out of existence is something Darkseid seems to do to his own minions (esp. Desaad) when he is annoyed by them. In his mind it's a petty punishment easily undone according to his whim. It reminds them of their insignificance in the stony face of Darkseid. Remember that the Anti-Life Equation, which Darkseid seeks above all else is not so much about destruction as it is about the domination of his will over everyone else.

I still say the coolest way to bring back Batman would have him either just walk into the Batcave or show up at JLA headquarters and with no explanation maybe except needing a shave. Why is he back? Batman doesn't need the JLA or his Corps of Robins to go into time and bail him out, because he is the goddamn Batman, that's why.

Batman=Kenny!

now that I've read #8:

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

Sorry about the spoiler, I thought now that B&R #9 is out too, everyone would've read #8 already.

Didn't they come out like a week apart?

Anyway also now I've read it, GRRR ARGH DC for not putting Final Crisis on the cover of the two issues of Batman that Morrison intended as part of Final Crisis (or collecting them in Final Crisis), and then being two years behind floppies in your TPB program [yeah I know there's a hardcover of RIP, but if you think I'm paying $40-50 for a hundred-some pages of Tony Daniel, you have been CRUSHED by the LIFE TRAP]

Both of them actually have "Final Crisis" on the cover! See http://www.comics.org/issue/536026/cover/4/?style=default and http://www.comics.org/issue/536027/cover/4/?style=default ...

those links don't work but argh! I guess the issues sold out in my shop then. they certainly weren't promoted as being proper parts of FC ahead of time though. or if they were, underline my TPB whinge.

And why did he put the clone in a Batman suit between the time the real Batman escaped and when he shot him?

Presumably he was already in the Batman suit.

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes. So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

Also, I don't really buy the "Omega Sanction is a worse punishment than destroying Batman" explanation. Not long ago, in Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, Darkseid had already witnessed that a strong-willed individual can escape the Omega Sanction. And he must know Batman is strong-willed enough, since he'd just escaped from an almost similar trap in Last Rites. So why, instead of completely destroying Batman, would he risk Batman escaping again, especially considering Batman had proven resourceful enough to almost kill him?

Ego. Anyone can kill Batman, but Darkseid would be the first to break him. Darkseid wasn't ever interested in killing everything; he was always about domination. He needs his enemies to know he defeated them. When Darkseid kills an enemy it is to cause greater despair in that being's allies. Using the Omega Sanction on Batman and than dressing a clone in his garb achieves both - Batman will know the despair of being unable to help his friends and all he's fought for and the other heroes think him dead. Win-win.

Darkseid had no problem killing Mister Miracle in Seven Soldiers, though, after he'd escaped the Life Trap. And unlike with Batman in FC, in SS Darkseid totally had the upper hand, he could've done anything to Mr. Miracle, but chose to just shoot him.

key - after he'd escaped the Life Trap.

If Batman comes back and challenges Darkseid we'll see what happens. The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people. You don't like what Grant wrote. We get it.

The Darkseid of Seven Soldiers is chronologically after the Final Crisis Darkseid - he's still falling backwards through time. Mister Miracle's escape is in Darkseid's future, so he doesn't know the Onega Sanction is possible to defeat.

I don't think this is true. Unless I'm completely wrong, Darkseid's fall back in time is because of his "death" in Countdown to Final Crisis, not because of his actual death in FC. After Countdown he falls back in time into the "Dark Side" body he has in Seven Soldiers. In Seven Soldiers that body is still healthy, but in FC we learn that he has worn it out, which is why he needs to move into Dan Turpin's body. So the FC Darkseid is chronologically after Seven Soldiers.

I don't think you're ever going to believe this version of Darkseid is consistent with other DC lore, despite lots and lots of explanations and proofs from other people.

It's not even consistent with Morrison's previous usage of Darkseid... Anuway, my point was not so much to argue about DC lore rather than to say that the way FC dealt with Batman's much-advertised "death" felt like a cop-out. The Omega Sanction solution both undermined the dramatic effect of Batman's heroic sacrifice, and was kinda dubious from a character point of view.

But he wasnt!

idk what Last Rites is but IIRC from one read of B&R #8 Darkseid says "okeydokey, flush all those dodgy tube-Batmen down the drain except one which we'll keep around in case"

so they flush the rest and then dress up the one they decided to keep as a cunning decoy

right?

also re 'much-advertised "death"' - Morrison repeatedly said over and over in RIP publicity that he wasn't going to die

Okay, with the issue in front of me:

But he wasnt! In both Last Rites and Batman & Robin #8 we clearly see that the clones were (as you'd assume) naked in their growing tubes.

"DISPOSE OF THEM. ALL BUT ONE."

As I said.

So somehow Darkseid must've predicted what would happen and put one of the clones in a Batman suit for Supes to find.

"A PERFECT COPY OF BATMAN, DEAD?

I CAN USE THAT."

Gosh you're right T-dogg, no reason at all to infer that Darkseid would have stashed his dead Batman clone in a Batman costume to make people assume it was Batman! What WAS I thinking?

Er, my point was that the cunning decoy Batman corpse would've been kinda useless if the real Batman was alive and kicking, or if anyone saw what happened to the real Batman, so Darkseid must've somehow predicted that after Batman escaped he wouldn't join the other heroes, rather than come after him alone, which would give him the chance to send Batman into the past and replace him with the clone corpse without anyone else noticing. I guess it's possible Darkseid planned the whole thing like this, but it still seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Anyway, I just realized that Final Crisis might've provided an answer to a question that always bugged me about the Rock of Ages arc in JLA. In that story, the time-travelling heroes must stop Superman from destroying the Philosopher's Stone/Worlogog, because its destruction will lead to the dark future where Darkseid has conquered Earth. What bugs me is that the story never explains why destroying the Worlogog would lead to this future, especially since there's no obvious connection between the Worlogog and Darkseid. However, in the end of Rock of Ages, the heroes give the Worlogog to Metron, and in Final Crisis #7, Superman discovers "Element X" in Metron's chair. Element X looks similar to the Worlogog, and Superman uses it to power the Miracle Machine, so I guess it's possible the dark future in Rock of Ages would've resulted from Superman not being able to use Element X in FC. However, there's a couple of problems with this theory... First of all, since Superman has seen the Worlogog before, wouldn't he have called it that in FC #7, and not "Element X"? Secondly, Supes discovers Element X only after he has (supposedly) sang Darkseid to death, so I'm still not sure exactly how the future of Rock of Ages would've happened, since Element X isn't used to kill Darkseid.

And speaking of unexplained things in Rock of Ages, can someone explain to me why, in the future Earth of that story, Orion destroys the universe after Darkseid had been defeated? That one bugs me even more than the Worlogog thing. Orion says he does it so that the universe will be free of "Darkseid's taint", but by that point the heroes had already defeated Darkseid and he was dying. So what was the point of destroying the universe?

Darkseid didn't have to predict exactly that Batman would come after him alone after escaping from something not shown in the comic, he could keep his Batman clonepse around IN CASE an opportunity presented itself!

I remain glad that I did not read anything Final Crisis related.

You shouldn't be! It's not a bad series or anything, just a bit of a mess, even by Morisson's standards. But there are enough of cool and awesome moments to make up for the plot incoherence. And the Superman Beyond 3-D mini is simply one of the best things Morrison has ever written. IMO it's even better (and more fun) encapsulation of the major themes in his work than Flex Mentallo, and in half the space.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Pretty much. The whole thing is framed on characters like Anthro & Metron, who only show up to signify the gravity of the crossover. Show me one DC stan who has ever read an Anthro comic.

ANTHRO is one of those great oddball late 60s titles that temporarily made dc a semi-interesting comics company, eg CAPTAIN ACTION, HAWK AND DOVE, ANGEL AND THE APE, THE CREEPER, BROTHER POWER THE GEEK etc etc. ANTRHO was written and drawn by a guy called howie post, who had a really interesting career in and out of comics and animation, and some issues were inked by wally wood! Far more interesting and entertaining than 90% of DC's usual superhero balls

I've never read an Anthro comic and I didn't who the guy was when I first read FC, but it didn't matter, because his role in the story it's pretty obvious even if you have no knowledge of his history. Metron is another thing, but he's not a minor forgotten character, is he? I'm not that well versed in DC lore, but I had no problems getting what the various characters do in the story. If you have the basic knowledge on the major DC heroes (Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash) and know at least something about Darkseid and the New Gods, that should be enough. Knowing about some of the minor characters might enrich the reading experience, but what they do in FC is not hard to follow even if you don't know who they are. For me, a much bigger problem was that the plot had some holes in it and was sometimes hard to follow because of itself, not because of my lack of PhD in DC mythology.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Gah! No! FC proper is totally formulated to be self-contained. Yes, there are lots of obscure references that enhance the text if you understand them, but you aren't left in the dark if you don't. It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person (assuming that person has a generally competent level of reading comprehension, as that seems to be the biggest stumbling block w/r/t reading FC).

You guys I am totally going to do my page-by-page explanatory walkthrough of Final Crisis as a video. No, seriously. In about a month. (I've been called upon to do it at a couple of parties already.)

It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person

Really? Even if I agree that it doesn't an extensive knowledge of DC trivia to read Final Crisis, I can't imagine anyone without a good knowledge of superheroes as a genre appreciating it. So much of it plays with, comments on, takes for granted, and deconstructs superhero comic conventions (and also specific conventions relating to Batman and Superman) that I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with those conventions. Take Superman Beyond 3D, for example: the whole thing is pretty much a meta-commentary on superhero stories. I can't imagine the bits about the Limbo of forgotten characters or about the alternate universes would make much sense even to a indie comic reader who's unfamiliar with superheroes, let alone to someone who hasn't read comics at all.

someone get ready to edit in Tuomas every ten seconds going "but what about--?"

x-post Tuomas OTM

I guess the Limbo thing was better explained in Animal Man, where it first appeared, but if you only come across it in Final Crisis, you'll probably have to already know what the term "comic book limbo" means in order to understand that you're seeing a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

As a casual comics Christian, I would definitely not recommend Final Crisis to me, let alone to a comics infidel. Maybe offer the All-Star Superman instead?

I'd definitely watch that walkthrough, Douglas! I still haven't figured out the answers to most of the questions I asked upthread.

what would be in the walk through? is it the kind of footnotes people do to those League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Comics, so people can get all the references to DC nerd stuff Grant Morrison drops?

the rolling Final Crisis thread

I pretty much never agree with Tuomas about anything but he's OTM about FC being near incomprehensible to non-DC comics nerds. It was near incomprehensible TO ME and I have more than a passing familiarity with most of the major characters (never heard of Anthro before tho)

yeah, I pretty much just tried to find a way to enjoy it without having to understand it.

Has there ever been a big superhero crossover event that would be comprehensible to non-superhero readers though? When I first read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was pretty hard to swallow too, because I didn't know much about pre-Crisis DC characters. These kind of series are essentially meant for the loyal fans, right? The only difference with Final Crisis is that it was written by someone with a large fanbase outside superhero readers, so some non-nerds have tried to grapple with it too.

I think the main story is generally understandable even if you don't know all the references. Even as a fan I still needed a ton of help (like Douglas' notes) to get them, though, and when you don't get those references, you can feel like you're missing a huge chunk of the book, both in plot and greater conception - then it can seem like a really scattered, badly jumbled adventure with too many characters with minor roles jumping in and out that isn't even as enjoyable as say, the original COIE, or various other clusterfuck crossover stories. (Bear in mind I REALLY dug FC!)

I don't honestly think any non-comics fan, or even a casual fan, is really going to get what Superman Beyond was about? Though I guess it's arguable how much it really matters/connects to the central Darkseid story.

COIE was pretty straightforward though, the only weird thing a casual reader would have to understand is the concept of the multiverse, but not necessarily who Huntress was. Other than that, I found it pretty easy to read through a year or so ago (with no memory of what was going on in the DC Universe in '86 or who many of the characters were). It's paced well over the 12 issues, and doesn't feel too overstuffed. FC was gettin' in all this stuff from previous Crises, the aforementioned crazy 60s comics, and the Kirbyverse!

I found COIE literally unreadable. I think it was not so much the DC Universe stuff that melted my brane but the really fussy layouts.

I reckon superhero crossovers could be theoretically understandable by a casual reader, so long as they had heard of at least some of the superheroes involved. I suppose the problems come in if you start bringing in ones that a serious fan would know but a casual reader would not - do you throw in loads of "as you and I know" dialogue for the casuals or just let them sink or swim?

I have to re-read FC now, because I am convinced that you are all RONG. I do think reading some of the Morrisonian set-up books (52, Seven Soldiers, ASS, Animal Man, etc.) is helpful, and I would recommend reading those prior to FC, but I really do remember FC proper being among the most comprehensible of Morrison's works. It involves some close reading, but it does make sense. Douglas's notes were awesome, but I read them after the fact and didn't need them to sort out the what's what.

I dunno. If my girlfriend (who knows maybe slightly less than zero about anything relating to superhero continuity) makes it through Doom Patrol and is interested in reading more Morrison, I might see if she's up for testing my theory.