Superman, C/D?

Or maybe I shd say: what CAN make Supes work - as Showcase shows, he also works as an amped-up sitcom character.

It's all very well to say that the great appeal of Superman is that he was fun and he enjoyed his power and there was all this goofiness etc, and that's why he appealed to the kids BUT do you think that if Superman became fun again and etc and so on, the kids would be rushing to the shops to buy Superman comics?

Two things - The cross-publisher Uncle Bennian caveat was imposed because it worked - whiny indecisive Peter Parker was what the kids wanted. Teen angst fantasy was more popular than innocent-enjoyment-of-superpowers fantasy. And in the last couple of decades, what have the big sellers been? Dark Knight, Watchmen, Spawn, Sandman - the 'gritty' stuff.

The other thing is, we could argue about whether the chicken or the egg came first with those changes, whether the stories changed to attract the new audience or the audience changed because of the new stories, but neither one is going to fit back into the shell. The medium isn't suddenly going to appeal to kids again (and the distribution channels won't suddenly change), so even if 'the kids' out there would much prefer stories about happy winking Superman to stories about angsty Alex-Rossy Superman, they're not going into a comics shop, and they're not interested in comics as such.

So when you/we talk about what Superman SHOULD be (and what comics SHOULD be) - what does this really mean? That stories like this get to the heart of the appeal of comics (to who?) That they exemplify the strengths of the form? That Superman wouldn't have been such a hit _then_ if he was written like Superman _now_? (Making Superman stories different from other stories... how exactly?) That the iconic power of Superman rests on this early incarnation, perhaps?

"This (goofiness, enjoying power, winking) is what makes Superman great", to ME, I should cop to.
Obviously, this very stuff (and the perception of its perpetuity) is exactly why Superman has fallen out of favour since at least the mid-Sixties, while the angst of Spider-Man and Hulk, the grim solitude/vengeance of Batman/Punisher, and sheer violence/male hormonalism of Wolverine have eclipsed him.

Is this so true, though? Batman fans don't seem all that outraged about Harley Quinn. When Marvel makes the X-Men and Bullseye start dressing like they did in the movies, nobody really freaks out. I think there are more examples from the Bruce Timm Batman/Superman/Justice League cartoons too, but I can't think of any right now. Wikipedia claims that Mr. Freeze's current origin comes from the cartoon, but I don't know if that's true. I also find a claim that Gotham Central's Renee Montoya is from the Batman cartoon.

To me, Superman is like ABBA; the moment when he rips open his shirt to reveal the "S" being the equivalent of the piano line from the beginning of "Dancing Queen"; a signal telling that you have just arrived into this amazing wonderland of illusion and from now on anything can happen. Both of them are so innocent in essence (and I believe the essence of Superman goes far beyond from being an political american icon or something like that) it almost breaks my heart whenever I see the rest of the world turning away from them.

One thing that amazes me from the both of them is how they inspire such great work from such talented people. I'm thinking about the superb posts Marcello Carlin wrote about ABBA and stuff like "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?". Both of them made me feel like they were trying to recapture some of the innocence they lost at some point but the characters/music still keep.

Other heroes are really only pretending: Peter Parker plays Spider-Man; Bruce Wayne plays Batman. For Superman, it’s mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent that’s the disguise – the thing he aspires to, the thing he can never be. He really is that hero, and he’ll never be one of us

Forgot to mention that I've never followed the Superman comics ever, until the last few months. I'm sure Huk can remember like 8 billion Superman villains, but, to this mostly non-Superfan, Brainiac stands out as his only really classic major/serious nemesis, outside of Luthor. And of course my entire comment is nothing but pedantic nerdliness, and totally unnecessary since I do mostly agree with Gaiman's point.

xpost

No, no, it's Luthor and Brainiac and that's it.

I mean, everybody else is pretty one-note (though some are awesome, but hardly iconic): Parasite, Toyman, Prankster, Terra-Man, Vartox (awesome), Titano (awesome), Zod (never as awesome in the comics as Terrence Stamp was--except one comic, but I can't say which).
If you wanna get down to it, Superman's biggest, most iconic and enduring antagonist is Lois Lane, AMIRITE???

On the other hand, Byrne's villains are generally craptastic whatever comic he's writing, so maybe it's all his fault.

mr mxyzptlk! bizarro (a word that has steadily crept into the language)! terence stamp!

i suppose gaiman means that luthor is the only superman villain that the gen pub might've heard of - but then only cos of the movies, tv etc

these days in the comics, batman seems to be superman's biggest nemesis - is this a post-Dark Knight trope? i think so

superman is classic because he is the FIRST ie he is elvis (who, i think elaine dundy in her bk abt elvis and his ma sez, was TOTALLY into Captain Marvel comics - Captain Marvel was modelled on Fred MacMurray - if you kinda hook all that up, well done!)

I know all the villains who popped up in the cartoons and movies, like Bizarro and Mxyzptlk and the Phantom Zone fellas, but those first two are pretty damn goofy and harmless seeming, and with the latter, well, I've never known if Zod was actually in the comic or a Hollywood original. And, man, those movies can screw you up when you're a DC novice. As a kid I never got why Luthor was some corny used car salesman type in the movie, but then some super evil bad-ass in a Ralph Lauren Phantom suit in the cartoon.

xpost

uh, this kinda ain't true, I believe.

SO, is it possible that Warners made a bad Superman movie a few years ago on purpose?
http://www.newsarama.com/film/090917-superman-movie-no-plans.html

The Chronological Superman http://thechronologicalsuperman.tumblr.com/ KINDA rips off http://polmanning.tumblr.com/ but has real (good) analysis

booming: http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/that_superman_thing/

Superman's sheepish grin and shrug in the last panel later became the subject of a 1958 Jules Feiffer essay in Holiday called "Stop Smiling, Superman," which itself was appropriated by Quentin Tarantino for an elevator speech given by priest/hitman Lawrence Hilton Jacobs in the director's little-seen 2009 Norm MacDonald-starring remake of Charley Varrick.

wait waht

man do I wish that had really happened

The points made in this article aren't necessarily new or original, but I think it's a nice summation of what Superman is and why he keeps coming back:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/06/07/dont-mess-with-superman/

The last point is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's entirely true? Has Superman ever had a grim & gritty reimagining, besides Elseworlds type of stories (like Red Son), where the change of premise is the whole point? Even in Superman: Earth One, though it started with an emo Superman, he was pretty much the classic Superman by the end of the story.

I haven't read that many DC comics of the 90s, did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Justice_Society_of_America_v3_10_art.jpg

The previous, Brandon Routh, Superman film as well I suppose.

Where is that pic from?

That's the older Earth-Two Superman, right? I don't know what comic you're talking about, but what I meant was whether the "official" Superman has ever been grittified? I know it's been done to various alternate Supermen, but what about the main guy? (And yeah, I know the Earth-Two dude is canonically the original Superman of the Golden Age, but whatever has been done to him to make him "dark" must be after the Earth-One dude became the official Superman, and he became an alternate version.)

i don't know where that image is from either, but it looks like it's by alex ross, who i thought was pretty philisophically opposed to grim-and-gritty

That is a hell of an impression to have, particularly since he's the original source of Kingdom Come, the Superman from which is above.

well as tuomas sez, the image is a variant on the old earth 2 superman (with a bit of george reeves thrown in for good measure.) my definition of a grim and gritty superman would be one where he's holding a big gun and acting in a morally dubious fashion - not something i get from that particular image, where he just looks a bit broody (i haven't read the comic.) And in general. ross' work deliberately represents a return to old school values of heroic, noble characters rendered in a realist style, and usually framed as an overt repudiation of the post-dark knight school of superheroics (dark night being the ur-text for all things grim and gritty)

A fine and noble view, unburdened as it is by dull facts!

I mean, theoretically the in-continuity Superman book should be a coathanger for different one-off genre stories, with the Metropolis characters in the background for more long-form soap opera stories - like Doctor Who or X-Files etc.

^^^ superman should be combo of smug alien and corny all-american boy scout; the 'lo a god walks amongst us' stuff that the recent movies focus on (apparently; haven't seen the new one but i hear it's pretty humorless supes) should be at most color for the climax. if yr superman isn't smiling, making quips, more likable and approachable than batman then you're doing it wrong.

wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness, although i don't think of superman as being a 'quipster', esp - that's more like a stan lee character trait.

Quips are for last panel laughter freeze frames.

yeah quipster's the wrong phrase, more bemused, reeves had this down.

Basically he should be Christopher Reeve.

Matt Bomer for Superman?

wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness

agree %1000

always felt John Hamm would've been a great Superman but he's a few years too old now

Martian hammhunter

Jon Hamm should be Deadshot

Spider-Hamm, naturally

Matt Bomer for Superman?

― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:00 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

he looks exactly like cavill!

"did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?"

Does giving him a mullet count?

http://www.unwinnable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/SuperPowers.jpg

was the mullet dan jurgens' fault? i feel like it was

i would be down with asshole supes but never gonna happen

It's already happened!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x5/MacGizmo/Animated/drunk_superman.gif

what's that from? i managed to avoid the last supes movie but that looks hella older

superman 3, which was terrifying to me as a kid

the robot lady gave me nightmares

wow, that does not look like christopher reeve

the robot lady gave me nightmares

― Nhex, Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:48 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

she was so scary! also, richard pryor synthesizing kryptonite and using tar as the secret ingredient really grossed me out for some reason. i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke

Robot lady scared me too. I think a whole generation was scarred by the sight of Annie Ross being swallowed by wires.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwm11goF531qagpnjo1_400.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Superman_III_poster.jpg

Poster = none more eighties

i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke

Poster = none more eighties

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4058/4587230373_d04142cbe5_o.jpg

It's already happened!

Superman III is bad, but at least the way the Good/Evil Superman split is handled is in the spirit of the Weisinger/Silver Age stuff and not as some SERIOUS SUPERMAN IS SERIOUS bullshit

Yeah, absolutely. Reeve is really, really great as Asshole Superman.

Nick O'Teen!

Shakey OTM

"did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?"

Does giving him a mullet count?

Did the mullet coincide with any changes in his personality? In the mullet stories I've read, he's pretty much the same guy except for hair length.

I guess the electric blue Superman was an attempt to make him more of a 90s style hero? Though I'm only familiar with that through Morrison's JLA, so I don't really know what the heck it was all about...

Anyway, it's a perfect example of how well superhero writers/artists are keeping up with the current trends, that when they wanted to make Superman more "cool" in the 90s, they gave him an 80s hair.

Anyone seen the movie and/or read Superman Unchained, then?

Unchained read like a Roger Stern/Dan Jurgens story gone widescreen -- actually, that's not a bad thing -- but was more like a solid issue #341 rather than a BIG FIRST ISSUE. It's a lot more trad than Snyder's work on Batman, but again, that's not actually a bad thing.

The costume is still dreadful though - much worse than the mullet! And Jim Lee's back doing those horrible diagonal frayed panels that are his wont.

They gave Superman the "mullet" because Dean Cain had long hair at the time he won the job to play Superman. By the time Lois and Clark aired he cut of the hair to look more like Superman. So a long story short DC didn't want new fans to get confused, so they jumped the gun. When the studio was planning on having Dean cut his hair to begin with.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/14/alan-moore-addresses-the-criminality-behind-superman-and-the-comic-book-industry/

can anybody else get that to load/summarize it

bleeding cool seems to be down

Yeah, absolutely. Reeve is really, really great as Asshole Superman.

― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:57 AM (

he was also for the first and last time sexy as fuck

sorry, don't know why that isn't loading

seems to be an excerpt from a larger esay by alan that links the shady nature of pulp publishing w/ the theft of rights etc from creators like siegel and shuster.

i wonder if it will contain an ambivalent screed about his role in the Marvelman saga

Wasn't dead Superman In Space a bit g&g? He had a beard, at least.

Oh, and a few years ago (just before Johnsiverse) didn't he fuck off to Kandor for like a year or something because he'd had enough of humans? (From memory this led to Silver Age shenanigans instead though, so is probably not a god example.)

are you thinking of when he thought he was out of touch with the common man, so walked across America for a year?

(in a story that JMS originated and bailed out on after six issues, but collected half the royalties on replacement Chris Roberson's scripts out of sheer dickishness iirc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg1yUMqJMcw

Wasn't dead Superman In Space a bit g&g? He had a beard, at least.

This was before the Death, I think? He had to execute some Kryptonian criminals, because otherwise they would've killed more people, but breaking his "thou shall not kill" code caused a moral crisis, so he flew off to space to think about stuff. At least that's what I remember about those stories, it's been 20 years since I read them... Yeah, I guess that could be seen as an attempt to grittify Supes, but IIRC the storyline didn't end up changing him that much, and when he came back he was just as ethical as he was before.

I'm not really a huge Supes fan tbh, but I like this article:
http://comicsalliance.com/superman-a-celebration-of-75-years-review-dc/?trackback=twitter_top

hmmm 2/3rds of those stories are exactly the same ones printed in my Best Superman Stories collection from the late 80s (Byrne issue being the final entry in that one)

dunno if that undercuts his argument or not

nah, that actually makes sense, the late 80s was when the dark, "realistic" edgy superhero themes took off. it's more surprising now that the wheel has turned back around

yeah that occurred to me too

altho I didn't think my collection was about failure/sadness - there is that, but it also has the first appearance of Mxtylplyk, Superman's bday/Fortress of Solitude introduction, what if Krypton hadn't blown up etc. it has its share of fun.

Martha Kent fanfic. Someone, get this woman a job at DC.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/6447187

heh, that's a fun read

introduced 80 years ago today