http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php
it is a long read, and somewhat techy in places, but honestly well worth thee effort. The writer, "MixerMan" is an extremely insightful fellow, and his many knowing asides from the dreadful tale he relates are worth taking the time to look at this on their own.
― N0RM4N PH4Y, Saturday, 31 August 2002 21:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― keith, Sunday, 1 September 2002 14:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mark M, Sunday, 1 September 2002 16:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Siegbran Hetteson (eofor), Sunday, 1 September 2002 16:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 1 September 2002 17:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ron (ron), Sunday, 1 September 2002 17:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Sunday, 1 September 2002 21:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen, Sunday, 1 September 2002 21:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Sunday, 1 September 2002 22:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen, Sunday, 1 September 2002 22:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ejad, Monday, 2 September 2002 11:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
It would have to be a band that was in a "bidding war" two years ago and has yet to release any music. What guitar-based all-male band with a lousy drummer was in a bidding war in 2000?
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 2 September 2002 13:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ejad, Monday, 2 September 2002 14:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Monday, 2 September 2002 17:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
Nah, I don't think he's passive-aggressive -- he's just trying to be diplomatic while maintaining control of the situation. I'm really impressed by the way he's handling things; I would probably walk off the job on the first day. If anything, the producer's the passive-aggressive one, walking out of the room when things get too hairy, not being upfront about the "contract" issue.
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 2 September 2002 18:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ron (ron), Monday, 2 September 2002 18:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― David (David), Monday, 2 September 2002 20:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 2 September 2002 21:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― David (David), Monday, 2 September 2002 21:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
The comment about the editing and 'coaxing better performances' was one I had a fair bit of trouble with. Sometimes it's not as straightforward as that. If you're working to a time limit (which admittedly these guys don't appear to be) then you might have to work within the limits of the band's skills as they are. If the drummer is lacking then doing takes over and over or changing the approach may not make any difference to the quality of their playing.
Mixerman made it quite clear why he was against digital editing, so tape editing was the only solution without outright replacing the drummer with someone who could play in time. Plus it was possibkle that it was cheaper to do it this way than rent the ProTools gear.
Sometimes the only way to coax a better performance out of a band is to send them away to practice for a few more months. I'm not being facetious.
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 2 September 2002 21:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
Regarding the drummer - the writer admits in some of the later instalments that the drummer improved somewhat (with drug intake boosting his confidence and when playing with a film crew present). It seems he lacked studio experience and wasn't used to playing to a click track.
It's all nonsense anyway. How bad can this drummer actually be? To the average listener I mean. At the end of the day it's the quality of the songs not the drumming that's going to be more significant in whether the band is successful or not (look at Oasis for example).
― David (David), Monday, 2 September 2002 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'll definitely agree with you here. I doubt that he's nearly as bad as Mixerman makes out. Most of the time I wouldn't notice the quality of the drumming on a recording unless it's really crap or particularly distinctive. Eccentricities in drumming are something that can make a recording just that little bit odd and interesting.
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 2 September 2002 22:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
It wasn't only that he was bad, though -- he was inconsistent, and he didn't take direction well. The parts he played (the beats, the pieces he was hitting) would change from take to take, which can make it difficult on an engineer who's trying to put together one usable take. And I understand the whole "odd and interesting" thing, but I gather most producers really do not wanna have a Shaggs on their hands, for obvious reasons.
― Jody Beth Rosen, Monday, 2 September 2002 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
I come to find out that Lance, my assistant, is his Nephew and that he would like to help Lance get some experience in recording.
is the point at which this diary became CLASSIC.
― J0hn Darn1elle, Tuesday, 3 September 2002 00:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen, Tuesday, 3 September 2002 00:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― N0RM4N PH4Y, Tuesday, 3 September 2002 21:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
I might well be in agreement with this engineer on many subjects but I just don't like his smugness (or the sycophantic posters on his forum). Sorry.
― David (David), Tuesday, 3 September 2002 21:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 3 September 2002 22:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
"Ok so if goes over budget for reasons in the mixer's control then it comes out of the back end.""What if it's the band's fault?""How can it be the band's fault if the mixer sucks?""The mixer doesn't suck! It won't happen so just leave it our way.""If it won't happen then why do you care?""Because it's a bad precedent. Our mixer always gets this." "Since when?""Since always.""No he doesn't but if we have to retrack it, it comes out of the mixer's point.""But the point is for the mixer's TIME! He could be recording [unlikely successful recording artist] right now! He wants to work with your band for some crazy reason""Well [unlikely popular mixer] is dying to mix this album, so fine.""Ok I'll call mixer and get him out of the studio right now."
etc., etc.
― anon, Wednesday, 4 September 2002 05:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 4 September 2002 20:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 04:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 05:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Charlie (Charlie), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 05:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ejad, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 17:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 22:19 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 22:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― vic (vicc13), Thursday, 19 September 2002 02:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 19 September 2002 03:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
― vic (vicc13), Thursday, 19 September 2002 03:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 19 September 2002 03:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 19 September 2002 14:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
I am never complaining about another recording session that I have been at again in my entire life. Oh, there are fresh levels of hell I never dreamed of.
Still, I would love to know who it is...
― kate, Thursday, 19 September 2002 15:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
― vic (vicc13), Thursday, 26 September 2002 15:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 27 September 2002 07:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
What IS all this shit about spending a week getting the right drum sound? I'm more convinced than ever that *conventional* bands shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a studio unless they can bang out 2 or 3 three tracks a day and finish an album in a week. Jesus - how long did it take to make 'You Really Got Me', 'Substitute', 'Spiral Scratch', virtually any Motown or Studio One classic?
I'm convinced that there's no *need* to fat-arse about like this lot. I couldn't work that way.
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 27 September 2002 07:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
Of course there isn't. And no-one outside of the industry is going to give so much as a single toss how in time the drums are or how much groove the bassline has. And they're certainly not going to care whether it was recorded on Protools or Analog.
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 27 September 2002 08:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 27 September 2002 08:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 September 2002 14:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Friday, 27 September 2002 15:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 27 September 2002 16:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
Gah, now it's like the writing/hosting of the journal is as much a soap opera as the journal itself.
I don't buy this "Lance is really Mixerman" theory, not at all, siree.
― kate, Friday, 27 September 2002 17:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
It didn't used to matter about these things - listen to Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell etc. - their timing is all over the place, indeed it was part of the charm of the music. But that charm doesn't seem to be much valued any more. Most drummers seem to aspire to be tight, like programmed drums, and maybe the public have got so used to quantised beats and very tight, comped live drums that they subconsciously reject sloppy playing in a way they didn't 20+ years ago.
― David (David), Friday, 27 September 2002 21:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Saturday, 28 September 2002 00:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
And the point isn't strictly whether something is out-of-time or not (although a lot of very rigid producers seem to turn it into that) -- the point is whether it works or not, and surely it's better for any particular product to have a producer who can identify when it doesn't and try to improve that somehow. (In other words, the call here should be less "let them play out of time" and more "well out-of-time isn't necessarily bad, so please be judicious when deciding whether or not it needs to be futzed with.")
Leave alone my guess that the majority of drummers who play out of time play out of time in an straight-up "bad" and not an "interesting" way.
― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 28 September 2002 00:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― vic (vicc13), Saturday, 28 September 2002 02:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― David (David), Saturday, 28 September 2002 13:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Siegbran Hetteson (eofor), Saturday, 28 September 2002 14:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
Great records (by *conventional* guitar bands) cannot be made using the process that these guys use to make records, because the WHOLE PROCESS necessarily produces something stillborn. At first there should be TOTAL emphasis on speed, intensity and purity of performance - and technical stuff should come later.
This is why no great major label, big budget, guitar-band records are made anymore. The guitar in the mainstream is dead.
Electronica/Dance/Other Stuff works differently and this doesn't apply.
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 29 September 2002 14:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
The fact is that if you're making a record and there's something going wrong with it, it doesn't really help to say "oh, with great artists this wouldn't happen" and scrap the whole thing -- it's a lot more practical to, like, fix it.
― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 29 September 2002 17:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ron S, Tuesday, 1 October 2002 03:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
Pish. Probably half of what I listen to probably hasn't been anywhere near a protools studio. I don't think I'm alone in saying I'd rather listen to a good band recorded on whatever than a bad one chopped to bits on a computer to make them 'acceptable'.
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 05:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― vic (vicc13), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 15:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 22:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
Not sure who 'you' is referring to. My point was that I find the old, un-edited style more acceptable because it has more personality and charm and yes frailty. Unfortunately most people are now accustomed to the smoothed-out, more generic products of today so the industry sees those techniques as more or less essential.
― David (David), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 22:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
― maura (maura), Friday, 22 November 2002 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
Thank you god, my prayers have been answered, I've been jonesing for Bitchslap for MONTHS! I even dreamed about them...
― kate, Friday, 22 November 2002 21:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
he's just plain wrong about many NYC things (big surprise), but no more so than any other tourist.
― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Friday, 22 November 2002 22:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 22 November 2002 22:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― kate, Friday, 22 November 2002 23:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― chaki (chaki), Friday, 22 November 2002 23:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
I stumbled across this thread, as I'm putting together the 'reviews' of my story for some pitches (yes, big plans on the horizon!). I would just like to say that I found all your comments very enjoyable thank you for that.
I particularly found Bucky's comment: "he's just plain wrong about many NYC things (big surprise), but no more so than any other tourist."
Seeing as I grew up in North Jersey and spent an inordinate amount of my childhood and young adult life in New York City, I find it nothing short of humorous for me to now be called a tourist. Yes, it's true, since I've lived in California for so long I find the general over-abundance in New York City slightly disstasteful, but that doesn't make me tourist!
Honestly, can I help it if I became suddenly and inexplicably lactose intolerant shortly after I turned 30, and I have been permanently deprived the joy of a New York Pizza? So depressing. I could kill myself just thinking about it.
Oh, well. Tofu burger, anyone?
Mixerman
― mixerman, Saturday, 23 August 2003 07:53 (twenty years ago) link
Loved yr story.
― mei (mei), Saturday, 23 August 2003 09:40 (twenty years ago) link
They seem to have some criteria similar to the book. Switched record companies, replaced bass player and drummer before the new album came out. Also had a minor hit in 2000 and started recording in 2002.
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/06/02/class-payne.php
"In classic major-label style, whatever supporters Tsar had at Hollywood ultimately departed the label, leaving the band adrift and vulnerable to attack. While Hollywood did get a new head of A&R who was, according to Whalen, a true music lover and very fond of Tsar, the label’s head honchos were so out of touch that the band felt like they were living in a purgatory-like limbo."
― stickyfingers, Friday, 2 December 2005 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link