And also, does New Day Rising sound better on vinyl?
― Michael Copeland, Sunday, 27 February 2005 19:54 (nineteen years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Sunday, 27 February 2005 19:59 (nineteen years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:00 (nineteen years ago) link
SST is a horrible label. It's got so much great music and never does a fucking thing to present in it in the fashion it deserves....what a fucking mess.
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:08 (nineteen years ago) link
I've noticed that the mix on New Day Rising gets progressively better as the album goes on, but I really have not heard anything as awful as "New Day Rising" or "Girl Who Lives on Heaven Hill" on any CD. It's weird that I've never even noticed it before.
Also, is there anywhere that I can read some details on the relationship between Bob and Grant? I wasn't even aware that they hated each other (I've had Candy Apple Grey for years and years, but have only picked up the band's other albums in the last couple years, so I'm not one of their "long-time fans".)
― Michael Copeland, Sunday, 27 February 2005 20:20 (nineteen years ago) link
Sold, bought their way out of their contract or lost by expiry to Rykodisc.
― George Smith, Sunday, 27 February 2005 21:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Sunday, 27 February 2005 21:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Sunday, 27 February 2005 22:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― poortheatre (poortheatre), Sunday, 27 February 2005 22:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 27 February 2005 22:13 (nineteen years ago) link
I dunno, check the article.
― poortheatre (poortheatre), Sunday, 27 February 2005 22:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― f ath, Monday, 28 February 2005 02:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jimmy Mod Has Returned With Spices And Silks (ModJ), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― chris andrews (fraew), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:12 (nineteen years ago) link
I believe reading in various places that Mould & Hart were particularly unhappy with the mix of NDR, and that a lot of that was due to wrangling w/Spot & SST for control of the sessions. That's why they did Flip Your Wig themselves, which still sounds bad, but in a different way.
Speaking of fantastic SST albums whose power was severely undercut by piss-poor production, how about Damaged? Shit, Ginn's gotta realize he could probably make a decent dimebag off that.
― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horn (AaronHz), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― wombatX (wombatX), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:33 (nineteen years ago) link
And Spot...man, I go either way on him. Sometimes he does a really good job (Meat Puppets, Minutemen), sometimes he gets that horribly weak-ass tin can sound (Husker Du, Black Flag).
― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― wombatX (wombatX), Monday, 28 February 2005 03:44 (nineteen years ago) link
i'm still debating whether to believe him or not.
― Kingfish MuffMiner 2049er (Kingfish), Monday, 28 February 2005 04:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― gor gor the frost giant, Monday, 28 February 2005 07:34 (nineteen years ago) link
― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Monday, 28 February 2005 11:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Monday, 28 February 2005 12:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― RS £aRue (rockist_scientist), Monday, 28 February 2005 12:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― RS £aRue (rockist_scientist), Monday, 28 February 2005 12:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Monday, 28 February 2005 12:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― latebloomer: The Heavy Metal Velveeta Faction (latebloomer), Monday, 28 February 2005 13:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― j fail (cenotaph), Monday, 28 February 2005 15:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 28 February 2005 15:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Monday, 28 February 2005 15:56 (nineteen years ago) link
It might be my imagination but 8 Miles High sounds a little weaker on cd, but the Warners albums sound the same on cd.
― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 28 February 2005 16:04 (nineteen years ago) link
Spot must have gotten a new reverb or something around 1985, as their is a ton on New Day Rising, 3-Way Tie for Last and the last Black Flag albums, where most of the records he did with those bands are pretty dry up until that time.
I suppose we should be happy these bands even got to record some music. Look at how many of the late 70s bands never even got to make an album.
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 28 February 2005 17:08 (nineteen years ago) link
god i have every actual-real HD vinyl release!! i am so lame
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 28 February 2005 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link
Part of the "Y" in DIY includes being a shitty producer. You want Alan Parsons, you buy Alan Parsons.
― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 28 February 2005 18:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― Perfect, Monday, 28 February 2005 18:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 28 February 2005 18:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 28 February 2005 18:30 (nineteen years ago) link
― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 28 February 2005 18:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 28 February 2005 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link
gor gor OTM here, at least judging from the vinyl albums that are the only way i've ever heard the huskers. all you peeps who want them remixed or remastered are absolutely insane. that raw tinny guitar blur and those buried vocals, esp. on zen arcade and new day rising, are part of what makes them so great. those are two absolutely perfect records. it's when they started trying to clean up the sound that they lost their way.
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 28 February 2005 19:04 (nineteen years ago) link
― Perfect, Monday, 28 February 2005 20:14 (nineteen years ago) link
REMIX/REMASTER ALL OF THEM PLEASE!
All you zealots can hold on to your old copies...Grant Hart is a great drummer, and the drums on all their RECORDS sounds like TOTAL SHIT.
― ddb (ddb), Monday, 28 February 2005 20:36 (nineteen years ago) link
:x
― john'n'chicago, Monday, 28 February 2005 20:46 (nineteen years ago) link
― marsh mellow, Tuesday, 1 March 2005 00:20 (nineteen years ago) link
I couldn't agree more - but it's not cleaner I'd like, it's more powerful. Grant fuckin' slams that kit, and you can just tell that Bob's amp had a jet engine's worth of sound coming out of it, but the end result can sound way too thin and (dare I say?) wimpy, undercutting the force of the songs. And HD were NOT wimpy.
DIY is/was vunderbar. However, the concept that it means you have to have shitty recordings is retardo. Lots and lots of people made fantastic recordings with crappy equipment and little technical expertise. Even "bad" sound can be the coolest thing ever, when used in a way that benefits the material (I sure ain't defending the sound of the Warners stuff, which blows, although in a different way - too overproduced & anti-rock, particularly those poor drums, which were criminally shortchanged on nearly every recording they ever made).
Shitty sound works wonderfully for a lot of bands and a lot of styles of songwriting. Husker Du wasn't one of them. It doesn't ruin the albums - they're still in my list of absolute favorites, and I think they hold up regardless of any sonic flaws - but I inevitably wonder how freaking awesome they would sound with just a little more oomph, ie more accurate representations of what the band actually sounded like. Of course, given the nature of things at the time, it's wonderful they were able to record at all. I'll take bad sounding HD albums over no HD albums any day.
I think it's comparable to the Raw Power situation - that album was godlike before the remix/remaster, but it's even better now, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish HD would get similar treatment. It isn't going to happen, but whatever.
― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 03:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Austin (Austin), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 04:01 (nineteen years ago) link
but the tinny trebly nature of the guitars and drums mean they sound pretty shitty at normal listening volumes or through headphones
― bbb, Tuesday, 1 March 2005 11:00 (nineteen years ago) link
I don't like that remix at all. They would have been better off just remastering from the original mix tapes.
The SST stuff is great in the fact that they made do with what they had. If you compare their production to Bad Brains, Minor Threat or other bands of that time, it is about on par. People just didn't have a Protools rig setting on a laptop in every other musicians house in 1983.
While SST business practices are questionable after the fact, if they didn't put out those records most of those bands might not even be known today. By comparison, look at how many of the records put out on Homestead or Restless are completely obscure today, as those labels couldn't keep things in print or could not get them distributed nearly as well.
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 11:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 12:38 (nineteen years ago) link
I think part of the reason that narrative developed was because the 1st single ("Statues"), which is in that earlier style, was basically out of print/unavailable until the Everything Falls Apart reissue in the 90s.
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:03 (six years ago) link
I am seriously anticipating being able to crank this stuff up in glorious non-MP3 fidelity
btw Extra Circus is now available digitally on Bandcamp, as noted on some other thread.
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:04 (six years ago) link
I can't remember if I mentioned this earlier but I'm really disappointed by the remix/remaster of "In a Free Land." Pumped the bass up and all the magic of those swirly silver stun guitars is gone. But "Everything Falls Apart" sounds better so I guess it's even. Also I got that Record Store Day reissue of "In a Free Land" and it sounds tight so w/e, psyched for the Zen Arcade box
― flappy bird, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:06 (six years ago) link
good lord that reissue is pricy
have you been able to compare it to the Ryko EFA reissue versions?
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:09 (six years ago) link
Rhino!
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:16 (six years ago) link
that makes sense, from what I remember of Mould's book and the chapter in Azerrad's book, Hart and Mould bonded over 60s pop as well as all their punk records & started playing hardcore because it was what was going on at the time.
― flappy bird, Thursday, October 26, 2017 12:01 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i mean they were covering Donovan and the Byrds pretty early on
also, in general Minneapolis punk is fundamentally misunderstood because no one that's not from here really gets that the Suicide Commandos are the most important Minneapolis band ever and that without Chris Osgood is really the central figure to the Minneapolis punk scene, and the Commandos were def one of those bands that existed in that pre-punk nexus between emerging punk, Nuggets, the Who, power pop, DEVO, etc, and everyone in any Mpls band of note would have looked up to them. But overall, I think Minneapolis punk was much less adversarial to classic rock and "year zero" mentality than punk in other cities.
Also like I dunno, classic rock is just in the water here, and KQRS was so dominant for years
― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:18 (six years ago) link
sorry, thanks!
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:18 (six years ago) link
KQ RULES
― harbinger of failure (Jon not Jon), Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:01 (six years ago) link
the Suicide Commandos rule! so glad I got turned on to that album in the 80's, I was able to find the records back in the day
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:07 (six years ago) link
iconic t-shirt
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1566/3805/products/KQRS_PlainBlack_800x.jpg
― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:18 (six years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ZbNVb7Qh0
one of the great videos ever, directed by chuck statler from mpls who later went on to direct whip it and other devo videos
― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:35 (six years ago) link
wow, never seen that, thanks so much.
― sleeve, Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
Your Numero Group Order Has Been Shipped
― sleeve, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:26 (six years ago) link
Got mine the other week -- very nice indeed.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:27 (six years ago) link
My CD box arrived last week too, with the 7-inch. Shame there was no download code for those tracks, though.
― wronger than 100 geir posts (MacDara), Monday, 6 November 2017 23:36 (six years ago) link
wow Extra Circus is really fucking good! mystery why they didn't just make Metal Circus an album really
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 11 May 2018 21:01 (five years ago) link
Iirc, there were some additional teases from Numero Group about further Husker Du releases, but I haven't heard anything lately. Still crossing my fingers for further reissues.
Gotta say though, if Numero Group does go ahead with more Du reissues, I sincerely hope they make an exception to the recent "no more CDs" decision. It would really be a shame if these guys managed to never get a decent CD release of their albums.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:44 (three years ago) link
fuckin Greg Ginn, how I hate him
― sleeve, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:54 (three years ago) link
evergreen post imho
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:56 (three years ago) link
dude has straight up stolen a significant chunk of US 80's punk history, god it just enrages me
― sleeve, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:57 (three years ago) link
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DR9pmjaX4AU2uku.jpg
― i have no scampo and i must scream (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:59 (three years ago) link
If it helps, I'd try pulling in the top end and filling out the bottom more. It's pretty much a standard EQ curve for anything that sounds thin, which is how those CD's and their digital masters currently sound. I'm sure the transfer could be better, but that EQ adjustment alone on a parametric equalizer would make a big difference.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:00 (three years ago) link
Honestly, I really can't help but wonder how much larger their rep would stand today had they gotten proper reissues out sometime between 2005 and 2015. It's not like they are forgotten and Mould has a pretty great solo career going, but I feel like the "discovered" live album, Dead Man's Pop and steady reissues helped the 'Mats to no end in terms of cache with younger listeners that might not have been around and it kills me to see Husker Du not getting the same thing.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:20 (three years ago) link
When I interviewed Carducci for my Flag book, he was insistant that the Huskers CDs sounded fine and didn't need remastering. Which is nonsense.
I interviewed Bob around his last solo album and asked him about further Du reissues and he said:
"I guess SST’s keeping them in print, and that was the main issue for a while. I think this Numero box set definitely cleared out the archives, in terms of unheard music. A lot of that stuff was floating around on the internet, but it had never been compiled and re-mastered and it never had as deep an accompaniment as Numero gave it, in terms of images and liner notes and all that. I think everything got exhausted, and the SST stuff, that’s sort of out of my hands – I don’t really worry about it as long as the music is available to people right now, and people are getting paid; I guess that’s all you can ask of what’s left of the music business."
― Pinche Cumbion Bien Loco (stevie), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:21 (three years ago) link
Ugh, that's such a bummer. I mean, I don't blame Mould for having to just let go of what he can't control but that answer pains me.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:23 (three years ago) link
i'm always a bit tickled when people complain about the mixing on the originals tbh. can understand wanting them on a newer format tho
― i have no scampo and i must scream (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
I was under the impression it was Grant's death that has (so far) delayed a second box/further Numero stuff - as Bob is so tied into his touring and release schedule, there wasn't an obvious person to help them make the second one happen as easily as the first. Which is fair enough as Bob wants to focus on what he's doing now and no blame on him for that. But i'm hopeful Numero will have more stuff to come... one of them has mentioned a possible archival live release they wanted to do. That makes sense really if they can't put out any of the official SST stuff. I would totally go for a live box!
― Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
the original LPs sound just like they should and how the band want them to. i've heard the CDs are badly mastered though and the difference in 20-30 years of technology would no doubt help them.
― Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link
yeah that makes absolute sense
― i have no scampo and i must scream (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:36 (three years ago) link
Mould did a great interview with Sound Opinions in the '00s where he talks about this. Not sure if anyone can find it out there, but I was very green about SST at the time and I was stunned when Mould said they never received any royalties on those CD releases. He said Warner Bros. never failed to send him a check on a regular basis for the three CD's they were keeping in-print at the time, but he had yet to receive a dime from SST. For that reason alone, the band had an interest in taking back the catalog and reissuing it (and thus remastering it) elsewhere, but internal squabbles prevented that from happening. Going by what Mould and Hart later discussed, it sounded like the issue was control, and Hart felt that Mould wanted too much of it.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:42 (three years ago) link
i'm always a bit tickled when people complain about the mixing on the originals tbh.
Yeah, I mean, the vinyl sounds great, and always has. The CDs sound pretty tinny and quiet, tho.
― Pinche Cumbion Bien Loco (stevie), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:47 (three years ago) link
yeah i only ever bought Warehouse on CD and that was to replace my vinyl so i probably never noticed
― i have no scampo and i must scream (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:49 (three years ago) link
I always feel with SST that the vibe was like George Bailey in It's A Wonderful Life when there's a run on the old building and loan, with Ginn being like, "I don't have your money, Bob, it's in the Minutemen's next album, and the Meat Puppets' next album, and Sonic Youth's next album," like they were paying it forward to the next SST band and would see it again when they got their budget for their next album. But that's a harder pill to swallow when the money is being sunk into albums by Gone and Greg Ginn solo joints and Tom Troccoli's Dog.
― Pinche Cumbion Bien Loco (stevie), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:49 (three years ago) link
thats exactly what it was like. Huskers and Minutemen both had long delay problems getting their respective doubles out in 84 - and despite warning SST it would be big, they only printed up maybe 5000 copies of Zen Arcade, which sold out almost right away and led to months (3-6 i think!) where they were touring the album (which had amazing reviews) and nobody could buy it. Black Flag release FOUR albums that year. no wonder Bob doesnt want to delve into the legal shit on this.
― Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:52 (three years ago) link
oh not to mention Greg / SST were also claiming all of the bands mechanical royalties for years until around the time they moved to a major and the legal people there told them how fucked up that was and they got them back
― Hmmmmm (jamiesummerz), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link
it's not just the CDs, it's every version of the albums on the internet. there are some good rehearsal tapes for Zen Arcade and NDR on youtube that I listen to more than the albums
― flappy bird, Thursday, 2 July 2020 00:36 (three years ago) link
yo hmu on ilxmail for HQ direct vinyl rips of my personal copies
― sleeve, Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:15 (three years ago) link
this is making me curious how different it sounds -- i have only ever heard the CD versions except for NDR which i bought a vinyl copy of bc i am a nerd and it's one of my favorite rock albums ever.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:19 (three years ago) link
the recordings could be a lot better but I kind of liked the harsh, tinny, metallic, trebly sound of Metal Circus, Zen Arcade, New Day Rising
― Dan S, Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:33 (three years ago) link
those extremely harsh guitar sounds were incredible I thought
― Dan S, Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:36 (three years ago) link
thats exactly what it was like. Huskers and Minutemen both had long delay problems getting their respective doubles out in 84 - and despite warning SST it would be big, they only printed up maybe 5000 copies of Zen Arcade, which sold out almost right away and led to months (3-6 i think!) where they were touring the album (which had amazing reviews) and nobody could buy it.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:47 (three years ago) link
but I feel like the "discovered" live album, Dead Man's Pop and steady reissues helped the 'Mats to no end in terms of cache with younger listeners that might not have been around and it kills me to see Husker Du not getting the same thing.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 2 July 2020 01:54 (three years ago) link
Another thing that helping the 'Mats ensure their legacy was Trouble Boys getting published.
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 2 July 2020 02:03 (three years ago) link
A long time ago, I'd come home after a lonesome night, put Zen Arcade on the record player and turn it up loud enough to where I couldn't hear the phone if it rang.
These private remasters are hit and miss, but this one gets close to what it sounded like on my turntable at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0emHpV2k0Jg
― pplains, Thursday, 2 July 2020 02:11 (three years ago) link
Trouble Boys did more to ruin my ability to enjoy the Replacements than it helped because they were so insufferable. I don't think I could ever feel that negatively about Grant, Bob, and Greg because they weren't as insufferable. I'm sure they had their moments and engaged in a lot of infighting/sniping, but they didn't light cash money on fire for larfs.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 July 2020 02:19 (three years ago) link
Part of the problem with Warehouse is that it’s just as poorly produced as Don’t Tell A Soul (though in a far different manner), but there’s no unreleased/“better” mix of Warehouse in anyone’s archives or kitchen cabinets. It came out sounding exactly like they wanted it to sound.
Yeah, I mean, when you hit Warehouse the issue is they wanted the album to sound like that (and fwiw I think it sounds great). I came to HD after hearing Sugar, and was frustrated at first that the drums on albums like Warehouse were less about the driving, bombastic force-of-rock playing of Malcolm Travis - but as time's worn on I've appreciated how Grant was after something different, almost a melodic way of playing the drums, rather than pounding away and delivering the dynamic payoffs. The reverb on the drums is totally an era-appropriate thing, I guess, and I dig it now.
― Pinche Cumbion Bien Loco (stevie), Thursday, 2 July 2020 07:52 (three years ago) link
I never really had a problem with the way my Husker CDs/cassettes sounded, tbh. I do find it telling that the major label albums that the band produced themselves sound worse (or sometimes more dated) than Flip Your Wig (which the band also produced). I have a feeling if I/we got what we wanted it would be a "Raw Power" situation. That is, we'd end up with two less than satisfying outcomes, the thin/disappointing mixes we have now or a bottom-heavy distracting remix. We rarely get true remixes of this kind of thing, though. Typically it's just remastering, which can help bring volumes etc. up to modern standards (like the REM, Replacements albums), but that's imo not often as night-and-day incredible as, for example, those definitive Bowie/Costello reissues of the Ryko era.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 2 July 2020 12:49 (three years ago) link
An issue is that Everything Falls Apart and Metal Circus sound better than all the acclaimed stuff that makes up 90% of conversation on this topic.
I get that the underwater, snow-flurry blur that is New Day Rising is an interesting deliberate aesthetic choice but I’m baffled with the approach to Warehouse, if indeed that was what they were after; all that biscuit tin snare and thin sound is just jarring for what is their most conventional pop-rock album, especially with Warners money behind it.
I think there’s a case that it doesn’t really help their legacy long term that the more approachable their music became, the worse the albums sounded (or at best, levelled off without much improvement). I do think that the Warners era was a missed opportunity, even beyond what we already know about the era
― Master of Treacle, Thursday, 2 July 2020 18:37 (three years ago) link
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 2 July 2020 21:50 (three years ago) link
Not until they very end, and even then it mostly happened in private, and not in person.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 2 July 2020 21:53 (three years ago) link