Jerry Sadowitz C/D

so classic

But in the main, he was right about that...

The Pall Bearers Revue, it was fucking aces, but was pulled due to offending overly sensitive Daily Mail readers who shouldn't have been watching it if it offended them. Will never ever get repeated, I wouldn't have though.

Classic, by the way.

me & a mate have discussed whether it would be worth putting up with possible abuse just to sit at a table with him and supply him with drink while he did some card tricks (he occasionally drinks in one of my mate's dodgy boozers)

i knew his bbc2 show wouldn't get renewed the moment he dedicated one of his 'tricks' to 'the queen mother' - it consisted of the camera zooming in on a cloth covering his hand...which when he whipped it away with a big TA-RA! - revealed him just sticking his middle finger up...

"And finally, Princess Diana puts her hair in a bun"
AYE! AND HER CUNT IN A TOASTAH!!!!

Anyway, Jerry wanders down looking for a seat, settles for an aisle seat further up from where we are, with a stunning girl with him. And every time I look back, he's basically snogging her face off. And yet he still moans about no action as part of his stageroutine, I thinks to myself...

Although it's a cliche for comics, he does look as if he might suffer from depression.

You're in a position to comment authoritatively on this matter - but have decided not to?

Are you, in fact, Jerry Sadiwitz? Well, as far as I'm concerned, you are.

I kind of assumed that anyone choosing to go to a Jerry Sadowitz gig would know what to expect, but I saw a few people on tweeting about how they'd been to see him and been shocked and upset by how offensive he was, so perhaps not? Maybe 'offensive' anti-woke comedy becoming such a thing over the last few years means that people go expecting something like Ricky Gervais and then getting an unpleasant surprise? It's kind of odd seeing gender-critical radical feminists defending Sadowitz's right to get his dick out on stage, though

one of the arguments people use in favour of offensive comedy is that it's (ironically) a kind of safe-space where it's ok to say things that would be unacceptable in most contexts, and the argument against is that it's impossible cordon this stuff off from the rest of the world, it still has a negative effect in normalising harmful ideas - but the 'this is a safe-space cordoned off from the rest of the world' defence maybe works better for Sadowitz than any other comedian, given that he doesn't do tv, is zealous about getting bootlegs of his shows taken down off the internet etc? Generally, you will only be exposed to Sadowitz if you actively seek him out (until tonight, I guess?), though some staff at the venue apparently complained as well as audience members, which maybe complicates the 'if you don't like it, don't go to his shows' argument

I noticed all the worst people were defending him. He is actually funnier than just about any other regular Edinburgh festival cunt (extremely low bar of course), but I can relate to anyone not wanting to see his fucking battered old crinkly cock, ffs.

the anti-woke people are backing him of course, but there's also a fair few liberal/left types defending him on the basis that anyone going to one of his gigs should know what to expect, when presumably they would not be making the same argument if e.g. Jim Davidson was banned by a venue, even though it would still apply.

if Sadowitz had ever come out as a commie then liberal/left types would be asking for him to be sectioned or banned from the festival.

Pretty certain Jerry Sadowitz thinks all the worst people who are defending him are all the worst people too.

When it happened yesterday, I googled "Jerry Sadowitz fringe cancelled". Google gives you the person's most recent tweets. One of them has been deleted from his Twitter account, but it's still there on the Google results page. Possibly explains why some of the worst people are defending him.

If I were a venue manager, given what else has happened this week, I would be worried someone would attack him.

It doesn't seem to be there now. What was the gist of it? I'd presume it might have been some ill considered bit of edgelord commentary on the attempted murder of Rushdie from your suggestion it would put him in danger. But would have to contain some bigoted element as well to make him lib cause celebre of the day.

It made some joke about him transitioning. It's not so much that sentiment that I thought might get him attacked (although I do think that's what has the worst people defending him), but he has been attacked before, comedians are getting attacked on stage at the moment, and somebody did just stab Salman Rushdie.

ah, that explains the lot.

I didn't know comedians were getting attacked, this seems bad. Would be tempted to post something like "unless it's happening to a wanker like Geoff Norcott". But I'm trying to be a better person!

Well, not at Edinburgh, but out in the world. And Sadowitz was famously lamped by someone at Just for Laughs about thirty years ago for calling the audience "moosefuckers".

Seems surprising now that Jerry got cancelled punched just for saying, "Hello moosefuckers!". People were so quick to take offence 30 years ago.

"Hello moose-fuckers. You know what I hate about this country? Half of you speak French and the other half let them."

the full line was actually quite amusing tbf!

it's fascinating to realize that the deleted tweet with sadowitz' particular variation on the One Joke is in fact something few other transphobic comedians would dare to say. ricky gervais can make jokes about how repulsive we are all day long, but claiming _himself_ to be trans, even as the setup for The One Joke, is something i have a difficult time imagining.

that's the other thing about sadowitz' particular brand of humor, what makes him uncommonly defensible among asshole comedians - it doesn't always hit the targets one expects. since i don't _know_ his jokes, since i wasn't there for his performance, i can't actually judge to what extent his jokes are... not _offensive_, but garden-variety assholery. sadowitz as a woman would, i think, be revolting - not because sadowitz is a _man_, but because he's _jerry sadowitz_, his whole _thing_ is being revolting.

regarding comedians getting attacked, i am absolutely sympathetic. to live in fear of being attacked is a terrible thing. as a trans woman i do have to take certain steps to minimize the risk of my being attacked. i don't wish to overemphasize the risk i face - i'm an educated, professional white woman with a certain amount of passing privilege in one of the most trans-friendly cities in the entire world - but the risk is there, certainly. the difference between my situation and sadowitz' is that sadowitz can pretty effectively protect himself from most forms of attack by simply not saying awful, offensive things. i don't know what i could do to keep from being attacked short of not actually existing.

Sadowitz did get attacked on television once in the late 90's as well, on his People vs JS show. I can't remember what bit of assholery caused it, but he had that professional cockney gorilla bodyguard there to protect him from the assailant.

Doing the trans joke was some craven shit, he was already benefitting free publicity from a minor story about his fringe show getting yanked turning into more "woke cancel culture" bollox. Then he's playing to the terfs. A good point someone made was since when was getting your dick out in public covered by freedom of expression. I'm not saying nudity should be banned from performance art, but in this context it seems like there is no artistic merit and it could be traumatic for some female audience members who haven't bought tickets for a gg allin gig. So pretty much a justifiable cancelling.

The one trans comedian I know is very pro-Sadowitz on this

Venues cancelling acts for content mid-run is a dangerous precedent. Literally doesn’t matter what Jerry Sadowitz said. He’s fucking JERRY SADOWITZ.

— Andrew O'Neill ☉ (@destructo9000) August 13, 2022

Also there's claims in the comments that ending the show with a striptease is what's he's been doing for 40 years.

(also an interesting point - it was after one gig of a two-gig run)

I really don't ever want to ever see Jerry Sadowitz doing a striptease. But I only ever saw his tv work and have been mercifully spared this part of his act.

Yeah I've seen a few times and never once did he get his knob out. Thank the Lord.

For me it's not a question of whether or not one is "for" or "against" Sadowitz. Like Andrew says - literally doesn't matter what he said.

At the same time it's hard to then argue that cancelling him mid-run sets a "dangerous precedent". Like, first off, Britain is pretty much openly a fascist death state at this point, and as such arguing against something on the grounds of whether or not it sets a "dangerous precedent" seems slightly absurd. Because if there's one thing fascists are concerned about it's fucking _respecting precedent_, right? More directly, the fact that it's _Jerry Fucking Sadowitz_, a man to whom the customary social standards _ought not apply_, makes it difficult to use him as "precedent" for anything.

"Why can't I get my dick out on stage? Jerry Sadowitz has been doing it for 40 years!"
"Doesn't matter. He's fucking JERRY SADOWITZ."

One of the things I find funniest about Sadowitz, one of his great successes as a troll comedian, is his ability to bait people who have no idea what he's actually doing into passing judgement on him loudly, and in public. I'm not talking about O'Neill here - I don't know O'Neill - but that TERFs are apparently falling all over themselves to defend JERRY SADOWITZ as a free speech hero? That's fucking hilarious. People going to a show at the Edinburgh Fringe put on by Jerry Sadowitz and being so offended they demand the next night's show be cancelled - and the Fringe then _cancelling_ it? That is comedy fucking gold. I don't know whether Sadowitz' jokes themselves are funny, not having been to any of his concerts, but the things people say about Sadowitz certainly are.

From my perspective - trans, yes, comedian, no - I mainly try to look at Sadowitz from a perspective of empathy. Sadowitz is a monster, as am I, and even if that's literally the only thing we have in common (it's not, for the record - we were both born in New Jersey), it's enough.

I mean, look, how the fuck is a guy like Jerry Sadowitz supposed to do a comedy show in 2022 and _not_ talk about trans people? He's spent his entire career saying offensive things about marginalized people, and we are _the_ hot targets of prejudice and bigotry in 2022. We're all anybody ever seems to fucking talk about. What's he supposed to do, go on stage and do a bunch of routines about calling the audience "moosefuckers" or whatever term for the Scotch would cause equal offense, show them his dick, and walk off the stage? That's not a comedy show, that's a 1986 Butthole Surfers concert without the epilepsy-inducing lights, surgery films, and "The Shah Sleeps in Lee Harvey's Grave".

Not only that, us trans people are a direct challenge to a key component of his comedy career. In most respects we're really not that different from cis people, differing mainly by being more attractive and more communist, but when it comes to dick jokes? Trans people represent a quantum leap in the dick joke. It's not that surprising that "comedian" is such a popular field for trans people right now. Trans dick jokes, whether you're transmasc or transfem, are fucking _amazing_. Way funnier than anything Sadowitz, as a cisgender man with a cisgender penis, could perform.

When I see Sadowitz, I don't see him as a "good" or "bad" comedian. I see him as a comedian who was one of the favorites of my late queer friend Ian. That style of comedy was one of Ian's favorite things. He loved all the "offensive" comedians, loved Bill Hicks, loved Chris Morris, loved Jerry Sadowitz.

Ian's not around now. He killed himself in 2016 after struggling for years with a NHS mental health system that was systemically _designed_ to treat him like shit, to bring about that exact outcome - for Ian to die, and for Britain to be able to blame _him_ for it. This is exactly the way Britain treats trans people right now. It's _part_ of how Britain treats trans people now, because queer people are, always have been, in particular need of mental health care. We get traumatized and treated like shit, and as a result we develop mental health problems. For people in authority in the NHS, mental health injury is often not a chance to help us _heal_ the trauma we've suffered, but an opportunity to compound and deepen that suffering.

That's what I learned from Ian. He means a lot to me, helped me come to terms with and understand what it means for _me_ to be queer. He can't speak for himself anymore. Most folks didn't really listen to him when he was alive anyway. He was my friend, and Jerry Sadowitz meant a lot to him, so Jerry Sadowitz means a lot to me.

Sadowitz was supported by fellow comedians including Simon Evans, who replied to him: “If you can identify the line that got you cancelled then I for one am willing to nick it. And I think every other comic should too. This is our Spartacus moment.”

the funny thing is that Simon Evans is almost certainly not going to repeat what Sadowitz said about Rishi Sunak onstage which kind of shows up the hollowness of his edgelord schtick

One audience member told The Sun: “I was at the show. He called Rishi Sunak a ‘p***’ and said the economy was awful because it is run ‘by blacks and women’.

is there a more reliable source than The Sun on this? Maybe the festival runners were saying he was cancelled for getting his horrible old dick out as a favour to him.

i suspect that at some point a bootleg recording _will_ surface and start circulating. sadowitz' dmca takedown notices are effective at keeping recordings of his gigs from being more widely circulated, but it's only effective up to a point. at this point, of course, people will move from arguing about what sadowitz _said_ to what sadowitz _meant_ - for the people arguing most strongly, it won't resolve anything, just give them ammunition for whatever version of the narrative they've already decided on. i definitely understand why sadowitz works to prevent distribution of recordings of his gigs.

The Guardian reported that the venue said people felt "felt uncomfortable and unsafe to remain in the venue" I know I'm wading in with no knowledge of what happened, but I feel that's at best horribly vague when applied to supposedly tens of walkouts and should be challenged as to what it really means.

Because obviously (for an arts venue?) to imply that a *feeling* of unease or danger would be unnaceptable (or can be leveraged as an excuse) in the parameters of art and entertainment is on the face of it incredibly regressive.

Unless there was somehow the real prospect of physical peril then it's stupid or disingenuous language at best.

As an aside, the line that got him clobbered at Just for Laughs wasnt the "moosefuckers" bit, it was the bit about the French language. People have been killed over language rights in Quebec.

As far as I can tell her main thing is to get more serious about climate

calling the audience "moosefuckers" or whatever term for the Scotch would cause equal offense

funnily enough, the term that would cause equal offense for many Scots is Scotch.

Which is why deems delighted in using it on here.

ffs. i'd generally have zero tolerance if an english person used that but would cut an american some slack and assune they just didn't know any better, but if they do they can eff right off.

assume.

lol I did have that thought. Is it Stewart Lee who has a bit that revolves around that?

for the record i am, in fact, an ignorant american and meant no disrespect to the... scots?... by the term. mainly i was thinking of ivor cutler's _life in a scotch sitting room, vol. 2_. not sure whether it's that "scotch" is an acceptable adjective for sitting rooms but not for people, if acceptable usage has simply changed since 1976, or both.

honestly i'm half tempted to just refer to scots as "moosefuckers" from now on. i mean y'all wouldn't actually take offense to that, would you? i know i wouldn't take offense to being called a "moosefucker".

for the record given what i know of the policies of maurice duplessis, it makes perfect sense to me language rights is such a serious issue in quebec.

regarding the "unsafe to remain in the venue", again, this is a concern i probably take more seriously than a lot of people here. if me and tiny toese are in a room, i'm not going to wait until toese physically attacks me to get the fuck out.

is jerry sadowitz tiny toese? no, just some old guy who regularly gets his dick out on stage. so at what point are women _justified_ in feeling unsafe around men's unprovoked sexual behavior? are we supposed to wait until he starts jerking off into a potted plant?

same way, women who go to a jerry sadowitz gig are supposed to _know_ that they're putting themselves in a potentially dangerous situation. he's spent forty years waving his dick around on stage, apparently, and we're all supposed to know this going in, it's our fucking fault if we don't. we were, you know, we were _asking for it_. right?

There's obviously nothing wrong with feeling you might need to get out of a place, or indeed getting out of a place.

It's the implication that a performance possibly having engendered that feeling or reaction makes it unacceptable that needs qualifying at least.

Content *doesn't align with your values as ana organisation"? OK... whatever, maybe you are missing something but that's your call.

Do their values really include "nobody must feel anything they don't want to feel in the presence of a performance" though?

In what sense is someone getting their dick out dangerous?

Jesus, it might be very unpleasant, it might well be literally triggering, but presumably all attendees are adults at least. Having PTSD doesn't make you not an adult.

In what sense is someone getting their dick out dangerous?

― thas baked, Zarathustra (Noel Emits)

to you, or to me, noel?

like, you've heard of the phrase "hostile environment", right? what does that phrase _mean_ to you?

Well, unless the dick is somehow wielded as a dangerous weapon in a physical sense, let's say anyone who has the wherewithal to buy a ticket and attend a show for adults.

The question being... in what sense?

I think I like Jerry, certainly I've supported him over the years, but at times like this I'd like to hear at least some people saying he is terrible and should fuck off.

thinking about it, once i get past the immediate defensive response, it's an interesting question. i mean, i empathize with what you're saying. i relate to it. five years ago, i wouldn't have found the prospect of some gross old dude waving his dick in my face at all threatening. i've just had different experiences over the past couple years. i'm a different person now. a lot of women do in fact find it threatening when some guy gets his dick out and waves it in her face. it's kind of... self-evident why that would be threatening? it's kind of weird to me that guys would _not_ find that threatening? yet at the same time i know pre-transition, i wouldn't have found it threatening in the slightest. gender is weird.

anyway, you're trying to put the burden of proof on me to demonstrate to you that having a dick waved in your face is threatening, and i'm honestly, i'm not going to accept that. i don't really want to try and _prove_ anything to you. i'm asking you to trust that, as a woman, i have experiences that you, as a cis man, don't. to accept that women have a right to, when in this situation, act to protect other women from having those same sort of negative experiences in the future. that our right to not have dicks waved in our face is more important than a comedian's right to expressing his "free speech" by waving his dick in our faces.

it's a big ask, and five-years-ago-me wouldn't have accepted my argument, so i certainly don't _expect_ you to. at the same time i think it's a reasonable enough argument!

not sure whether it's that "scotch" is an acceptable adjective for sitting rooms but not for people, if acceptable usage has simply changed since 1976, or both.

it was never acceptable but has got even less acceptable since 1976. Ivor Cutler, being Scottish was of course at liberty to use it as he pleased.

i can't imagine (m)any Scots would be offended by being called moosefuckers, or even highland cattlefuckers, but just watch the Scotch use.

being naked on stage isn't the same thing as waving a dick in someone's face. which is sadowitz supposed to have done?

"Well, unless the dick is somehow wielded as a dangerous weapon in a physical sense, let's say anyone who has the wherewithal to buy a ticket and attend a show for adults."

someone with experience of being a CSE victim or a sexual assault/rape survivor might bed to differ with you there matey

*beg, fucking wretched autocorrect/typo

My sister was sexually abused in the UK care system, but she's an adult now - so I guess her damage doesn't really count. Just don't turn up at *adult* comedy shows you idiot.

being naked on stage isn't the same thing as waving a dick in someone's face. which is sadowitz supposed to have done?

― oscar bravo

i will grant you, off the bat, that i am making a theoretical argument, and this perhaps is my major mistake in this thread. i do tend to avoid theoretical arguments, as they make things confusing and complicated. whatever sadowitz is supposed to have done, i want to make it clear, he did not do it to me. i have not seen his penis. i realize that i may have described his cock upthread in some uncomplimentary ways, and i would like to apologize for this. for all i know jerry sadowitz has an absolutely _beautiful_ cock.

to state plainly the premises of my theoretical argument: if i went to a jerry sadowitz show, and jerry sadowitz exposed himself on stage, would i be within my rights to attempt to dissuade the venue from presenting another show by sadowitz on the grounds that this act made me feel "unsafe"?

note that this theoretical argument does not bear any real relation to what actually happened. we don't know _what_ happened, why people told the venue that they felt "unsafe", what sadowitz did or said during the show.

i make a hypothetical argument, y'all respond by asking hypothetical questions, fair enough.

that said, it's hard for me not to point out that the gist of the arguments does... tend a little towards the absurd. again, not a negative judgement, i think that's the thing about sadowitz in general, about this sort of exaggeratedness in general, it does tend towards these absurd situations. but if you don't mind, i want to take a step back here.

like, the central issue here isn't the _exact manner_ in which hypothetical jerry sadowitz hypothetically exposed himself, that's not what i was trying to get at. perhaps i muddled the issue a little by describing the act a little too colorfully in an attempt to portray the vividness of the subjective experience i, as a woman, experience when a guy (or a lady, though ladies tend to do this less often) shows me their cock without my prior consent.

the argument i was trying to make, perhaps with a little less rigor, in retrospect, than i ought to have employed, is that i might be within my rights to both feel "unsafe" and act on my feeling of being unsafe if, in the course of a comedy show, jerry sadowitz were to remove his trousers and show the audience, including me, his beautiful, beautiful cock.

and i _love_ noel's response to this argument. it is just such a perfect response. when i bring up the prospect that an exposed penis might somehow contribute to a "hostile environment", his immediate concern is that the penis might perhaps be used to bludgeon someone. yes, of course, that is every woman's foremost fear when someone pulls their cock out - the possibility that someone might rip it off and conk us over the head with it.

ok first off there is something of a distorted sense of scale inherent in that framing. i've seen quite a few cocks, including some impressively large ones, but i've yet to see one where i thought "i'd better watch out for that one, it could possibly be effectively used as a cudgel". i'm sorry. i know the term "pound" is a common euphemism for intercourse but it's not something that's easily literally accomplished with a cock.

to state it plainly, the reason exposed cocks make me feel unsafe now when they did not before is because i am at a dramatically increased risk of sexual assault. of course, it is not _only_ men who rape, not _only_ women who are raped, and certainly by no means do _all_ men rape. however, prior to my transition my risk of being sexually assaulted was so low that, honestly, it seemed more likely that someone would bludgeon me with a penis than that they would sexually assault me with it. going from that to a life where sexual assault is a daily fact of life, something that has happened to one of my friends, something that is not unlikely to happen to me, no matter what precautions i take... that's hard. knowing that i will be held responsible for being sexually assaulted if and when it happens, just as has happened to my friends, that's difficult too.

and of course it's hard when we're blamed for _wanting to take precautions_. noel suggests that my belief that i would feel unsafe were the fictitious jerry sadowitz to show me his beautiful, beautiful cock might be indicative of "ptsd". i'm not sure where he gets that conclusion from. it's kind of weird. i guess it doesn't matter. what matters is that by acting to literally cancel jerry sadowitz, it's presumed that we're _enacting_ violence against sadowitz.

it's really not about sadowitz personally, either the real jerry sadowitz whose cock i haven't seen or the fictitious jerry sadowitz with the unutterably gorgeous cock. it's about, well, _structural_ violence, _systemic_ violence. whether or not jerry sadowitz exposes himself on stage is of less concern to me than the possibility that i might go to a comedy show, whoever's on stage might show me their cock, and that behavior will be defended as _normal_ and _acceptable behavior_ for that environment. treating a man showing off his cock in public as normal and acceptable _doesn't_ set a dangerous precedent. that precedent was already set, long before i was born. all i can do is try to minimize the personal consequences to me.

I mean, lol. this is the most terminally middle class comedy festival in the world. Be ready for cocks or just gtfo

something that has happened to one of my friends

_more than_ one of my friends

My sister was sexually abused in the UK care system, but she's an adult now - so I guess her damage doesn't really count. Just don't turn up at *adult* comedy shows you idiot.

― calzino

god it'd be nice if i could still talk to guys like that

I actually used to know Jerry Sadowitz - well, to be accurate he was/is a good friend of my best friend, I say "good friend", they've known each other for years but I'm not sure how good JS with friendships. Given that we were very much pub people and he doesn't drink and hates pubs, I didn't get to know him too well. Perfectly charming but incredibly neurotic and fucked up, he is a comedian after all. The other connection is my brother's future wife once poured a pint over his head at some kind of book signing thing.

yeah he doesn't seem like a pub person at all and his skin complexion looks teetotal

I can't help but think he'd have been much happier sticking with magic but I don't really know him well enough to say - no money in it though. Not much money in comedy either.

the card tricks element to his game has never been in question has it? An old friend of mine who was into all that shit told me he was one of the best in the UK. Albeit he was a postman amateur card trick enthusiast, but still!

Yes, I believe he's considered one of the best.

I actually used to know Jerry Sadowitz

i was very, vaguely acquainted with him. he left glasgow around the same time i moved here but he was back often, we had some mutual friends and we were introduced. i was surprised how quiet he was (the couple of times i met him, at least). he did do some great card tricks - about the best i've ever seen. i saw him perform one time and remember finding it very funny but don't recall any of the content.

A statement from Sadowitz:
I don’t wish to humiliate The Pleasance but they are doubling down on their position and I don’t want to be made the victim of that. I repeat... I did a 75 minute show for 600 people that went pretty well and left with no hint of anything going wrong.
In addition to now being told there were multiple walkouts and "abuse of staff" my act is now being cheapened and simplified as unsafe, homophobic, misogynistic and racist.
I am not J** D******* folks… a lot of thought goes into my shows and while I don’t always get it right, especially at the speed of which I speak… and I don’t always agree with my own conclusions (!)...I am offended by those who, having never seen me before, HEAR words being shouted in the first five minutes before storming out without LISTENING to the material which I am stupid enough to believe is funny, sometimes important and worth saying.
Additionally, there's a lot of silly, exaggerated irony and nonsense, real and exaggerated anger and bile, and even getting my dick out is for the purpose of the funny line which follows it. (No I won't tell you what it is… see the show for yourself… or better still... just stay at home).
I ask nobody to agree with anything I say or do on stage... God forbid they should end up like me... and I have never ONCE courted a mainstream audience to come to my shows because guess what??? In real life, I really DON'T don’t want to upset anyone… including Anthony Alderson.
The show is what it is, for those who enjoy it. The rest of you... please stick to Carry On films.
P.S. If the Pleasance can't apologise to me they should at least apologise to the 300 people who paid for and travelled to see the show on Saturday.

Not sure why he felt the need to asterisk out Joy Division.

He's personalizing it. That's why the statement sits weird with me. I mean, he's being systemically ground to bits by the Discourse Machine, which is a fucking horrible thing to watch, every time. It's not _personal_, that's the most horrifying thing about it. There's no such thing as justice, just random people being targeted for reasons that aren't really about _him_ personally. Hell, that's what I've been doing here. I really, genuinely have nothing against Mr Sadowitz. The stuff I'm complaining about has basically fuck-all to do with him personally. This is just what a world without justice _looks_ like, in practice.

you're trying to put the burden of proof on me to demonstrate to you that having a dick waved in your face is threatening

No, I asked you IN WHAT SENSE is "waving his dick around on stage*" "a potentially dangerous situation".

It's a question - as in, do you mean dangerous in the sense that it might make you feel really bad, or do you mean it indicates some realistic possibility of physical danger. The latter is usually what people mean when they talk about danger, and yes I would question the extent to which [offensive comedian on stage getting nob out] obectively indicates likely physical danger.

But if the former, I cannot possibly have anything to say about that, that shouldn't need saying (although I did say - "There's obviously nothing wrong with feeling you might need to get out of a place") . Feelings are feelings. Only, it's a little suspect eliding any distinction.

* if it's now "waving in face" being "threatening", that's surely further along on the "threatening gesture" scale, but also "threat" is partly in the peception and feeling threatened doesn't necessarily correlate with degree of threat to person, while it is identical with how threatened you feel, obviously not something I would be arguing with.

noel suggests that my belief that i would feel unsafe were the fictitious jerry sadowitz to show me his beautiful, beautiful cock might be indicative of "ptsd".

It was an illustration of an extreme example of "emotional danger" (as a concept), in the event that's what you had meant. Absolutely nothing to do with you as a person or what you might feel, believe you might feel, what might cause you to feel a certain way etc.

it is just such a perfect response. when i bring up the prospect that an exposed penis might somehow contribute to a "hostile environment", his immediate concern is that the penis might perhaps be used to bludgeon someone. yes, of course, that is every woman's foremost fear when someone pulls their cock out - the possibility that someone might rip it off and conk us over the head with it.

ok first off there is something of a distorted sense of scale inherent in that framing. i've seen quite a few cocks, including some impressively large ones, but i've yet to see one where i thought "i'd better watch out for that one, it could possibly be effectively used as a cudgel". i'm sorry. i know the term "pound" is a common euphemism for intercourse but it's not something that's easily literally accomplished with a cock.

It was SUPPOSED to be a ludicrous image of the potential for PHYSICAL danger, as opposed to something else, which remained the quite simple question I had asked you about what you'd said.

someone with experience of being a CSE victim or a sexual assault/rape survivor might bed to differ with you there matey

Not sure what you're getting at, primarliy because what you replied to was part of a question that still hasn't been answered, not a statement as such. That being in what sense is the supposed sitation "potentially dangerous"? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm asking in what way?

It SEEMS like you decided, or understood, that when Kate talked about a "potentially dangerous situation" she definitely meant "dangerous to FEELINGS". And then... you mean to imply I would have been doing something like disputing how people say they feel?

Or the alternative is that you mean to argue that a trauma / fear response is likely to make for an especially realistic assessment of the potential for a triggering situation to become physicaly perlilous? I'll assume that's not what you meant.

Hi Noel! Just letting you know I'm adding you to my ilx killfile script, so unfortunately I won't be reading or responding to any more of your posts. Just wanted to give you a heads up about that. Cheers!

In the meantime, thinking a little bit more about how the concept of "justice" relates to the Sadowitz thing. I think my feeling is that justice _on an individual level_ is no longer a meaningful concept. Which is a weird thing to think about! 2022. I tell you.

Quite liked this reading of the story.

sadowitz story is about post covid labour markets. power for staff to object to working for a guy taking his dick out and saying slurs is elevated massively by staffing shortages at the 2022 fringe

— josh (@lobstereo) August 14, 2022

I mean, that's not _terribly_ far removed from my take. I don't know if it's labour markets or the sheer levels of dystopia we're all trying to survive in or what, but the fact that I can even come into this thread and say that it's legitimate for some people to feel unsafe because Jerry Sadowitz took his dick out on stage, legitimate for the venue to cancel him, and have some of the men in this thread actually take me seriously... I mean this isn't a typical Internet Discourse space in a lot of ways but I'm still kind of reeling in disbelief that I wasn't immediately dogpiled into nothingness. If ILX was a larger board it would've happened by now, certainly.

There is absolutely no way a venue would cancel a show because of a shortage of Front of House staff. The theatre manager or admin staff just steps in, or the performers' entourage, or you just grab someone from the bar if necessary.

do you know anything about fringe? They’ve had a lot of problems finding staff and volunteers this year.

a lot of the Fringe runs on temporary workers - these are people who don't have the ties and reliance on the job, they know it's going to end in a matter of weeks, so it makes sense if something is bothering them that they'll feel a lot more comfortable walking away than if it was their "career job"

yeah, I thought the tweet was saying they were muddling along with staff shortages and because of this they have more say on what is an acceptable working environment.

I worked for years in the theatre in Scotland ( & like others in this thread got to know Sadowitz a bit when stand-up was huge for a time in the mid-90s). An absence of ushers is not a serious problem. Ditto for tech or stage management. The only absence that would stop the show is if Sadowitz cancelled.

Yeah and also as per other posts in that thread, they are significantly stretched everywhere. It depends on the roles too I guess but you probably just can’t get someone in for most things in time. Looks like they are required to know their way around fire safety and handling difficult patrons as a condition of licensing (and for a high profile thing like fringe, you’d bet they don’t want to take chances on that).

xp was that pre or post pandemic, cos nobody can get staff anywhere.

you need to have experience of working at the fringe in the post covid era to really know what you are talking about here

Were other shows at the Fringe cancelled due to a lack of front of house staff? Or just the one with the famously offensive Scotch person?

I mean sure, refund thousands of dollars of ticket money and engender tons of ill-will because noone is there to tell people where the toilets are.

one upside to being American is not knowing a single thing about whoever this guy is

He's kind of American too.

0 results itt for “dick move"

shaking my d*** head

milkshake dick move