The Films of Alexander Payne - C/D

I think more and more that About Schmidt is one of the best Hollywood movies of the past decade or so.

Purported original ending to Election (I can't watch this right now, but it appears to be closer to the novel's):

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2011/05/thats_an_apolog.php

That's pretty awful, though it does underscore Tracy's vulnerability a bit more. How does the book end?

wow way more feel-good-y. actual ending is definitely funnier, if harsher.

see above, ie the novel's ending is at least superficially closer to this unused one

ive never been that big of a laura dern fan but damn does she own in citizen ruth -- "i slept in some dumpsters, maybe i slept on some babies"

yeah that movie kills imo but i think this little yupster is p dope even 'sideways' isnt that bad honestly

otm i like abt schmidt a lot more than most ppl do

so yeah he has that new george clooney movie coming out later this year

so yeah the trailer is like NPR Sense of Humor: The Movie

i know! i hope it's good anyway.

I saw that trailer the other day too and was disappointed to see Payne's name at the end. I like Election and Sideways a lot (About Schmidt, no).

I'm holding out hope, but I think at some point he's gonna need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre. I mean, he's the honkiest guy this side of Tim Burton.

what do you mean by "need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre"?

Ingmar Bergman had that problem too.

http://www2.alibris-static.com/cover/v44182t6433.jpg

the pilot for Hung is kind of my 2nd favorite Payne flick after Election

what do you mean by "need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre"

just that his films are really, really white-bread. i mean i get that he is chronicling some caucasian midwestern-ish shit, but his only prominent characters of color (that I can remember) are (1) an exotic asian love interest (2 ) a starving african boy. i'm not calling him out for racist or anything, just noting that there are, like, certain... omissions... in his work. like i said, he's no tim burton, but as adds more films to his résumé with almost exclusively white casts...

^^ but, most of his films are set in Omaha! Has diversity arrived there yet?

there is literally no way i can think of him addressing "the super-whiteness of his oeuvre" in a future film that would actually earn praise from remy so why bother

good one!

eh "write what you know," etc. It's one thing for me to implore Woody Allen to hang out with different kind of friends; it's another to recommend he cast Martin Lawrence.

ok fine I would recommend it

i think its kinda unfair to write sandra oh off as "exotic love interest"? but i dont disagree that it might be nice to see some ppl of color in these movies. also its one thing to have a white-ppl-only movie set in the midwest but if this movie about hawaii is as white as the trailers make it seem that wd be...... weird

ugh fuck sideways. i really love election + citizen ruth is a crazy film. i always think of this dude in terms of a "what happened?" narrative. maybe i should see about schmidt.

sandra oh was not an "exotic" love interest -- she was just a good-time gal as they say.

never watched the director's cut w/ "me love you long time" monologue eh

I guess my issue isn't with what he's doing/done in terms of career being abt. white people woes, it's that he's selected four books to adapt (Citizen Ruth is original, right?) and the six or seven lead parts in each of them – save his ex-wife's – are all pretty similar. Google tells me that Payne went to UCLA and lived in Spain, so I think it's a little disingenuous to claim he's just doing 'what he knows' b/c at some point in his European and Angeleno life he has to interact w/ a lot of different people.

Also I've enjoyed all five(?) of his films, to varying degrees.

Maybe his own knowledge of Spain is superficial...?

I liked it but I'm not mr. smart movie guy or anything

Me neither, it turns out. I even found a lot to like about Nyad this evening.

I liked ]Nyad, it is a very watchable film and Annette Bening's and Jodie Foster's performances are both just about perfect

Since Payne hasn't directed anything in several years and has dropped out of quite a few projects, I think it's good if he gets a solid hit out of a "safe" one, just to get his career moving and (hopefully) pull together the clout needed to make something that's been stuck in limbo. Before this, he hadn't had a hit, critical or commercial, in a full decade.

It's weird being in the target demographic for The Holdovers - total cinema comfort food, very-good-but-not-great and as mentioned earlier - sometimes an imaginary Hal Ashby movie is better than the real thing.

i know that it aims exactly for this, but it doesnt do anything that a prestige young ryan o neal vehicle wouldnt in terms of the higher brow effort, and it falls some way short of giving us anything too piercing in terms of interactions between the younger cast caricatures

i thought it was pleasant but theres a reason this guy directs half-interesting swipes at rich america that i only bother to catch when stuck for something to watch

watched half of the Holdovers on the plane, do not feel moved to watch the rest. I have *hever* that I can remember not liked a Payne movie, and what I like about them is that there's a kind of sharpness to them, they don't go down easy -- this one, well, "cinema comfort food" is a good description. The group of holdover kids were a curated bunch of types like the Bad News Bears, except, again, without the sharpness of the (original) Bad News Bears.

Now that I think of it, what I really wish is that Payne, rather than Richard Linklater, had made the Bad News Bears reboot. That might have been good. Is Giamatti actor enough to play Buttermaker?

I think Giamatti gives a more heartfelt and memorable performance than Houseman did in The Paper Chase to be honest

― Dan S, Saturday, January 20, 2024 6:27 PM (four weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

The best-ever 70s-style performance of dead-inside old man academic is Donald Sutherland in Animal House. Anybody can play "doesn't fuck, sad and alone, can't exist in the world of grownups" what's hard is playing "fucks but is still sad and alone and can't exist in the world of grownups"

The group of holdover kids were a curated bunch of types like the Bad News Bears, except, again, without the sharpness of the (original) Bad News Bears.

not trying to convince you to watch the rest of the movie if you weren't into the beginning, but the "group of holdover kids" becomes irrelevant to the plot fairly early on (though i guess after you stopped watching)

Just saw the trailer for The Bad News Bears because i've never seen it. I guess it, er.. doesn't get shown on tv much these days.

There are reasons, but the heart of the movie is very warm and true, I recommend watching it (original of course)

bad news bears rules *canonically* ie it is fact, also it belongs to a time that no longer exists & that is part of why it is so great.

See also: Breaking Away

otm! THE BEST

Glad Da'Vine Joy Randolph won Best Supporting Actress at the BAFTAs this weekend. Deserves the Oscar as well.

I think it's great she's getting these well deserved kudos but I still get a real sense that Payne simply didn't know what to do with the character at a certain point and essentially dumped her off at her sis's for a good chunk of the movie's latter half. Part of me was all "Kinda wish I could hang around here more!" (Unintentional but instructive comparison would be how American Fiction dwells on layers of grief in a Black American family; obviously the focus and intent of the two films differs but, you know...)

I saw both within days of each other and loved having the Boston-and-environs pairing.

Thought this was okay, but it just reminded me about how great Election is (never have seen Citizen Ruth, need to correct that).

Payne simply didn't know what to do with the character at a certain point

Is there any reporting that he excised a fully-integrated co-lead from half the film because he personally disagreed or didn’t identify with her conception or presentation? Given Payne’s past efforts to sideline screenwriters, one presumes that he would have taken a writing credit if he made such a significant change.

Citizen Ruth v good.

Thought this was okay, but it just reminded me about how great Election is

I think that's easily his best film and so far the only one he's made that I'd call a great film. There's something to like about all of his films, and he definitely had the benefit of marquee stars later on, but at this point, I want to say he's an excellent writer and a fine director who's never really lived up to the potential suggested I would have guessed from Election.

It's too bad Downsized was so difficult to make and may have seriously hindered his chances at making more ambitious films in the future. The critical reception was polarizing for good reason - on the one hand, the scale of its ambition, from the more inventive (sci-fi) bits of the film to the scope of its ideas, were all commendable. It's the type of thing I'd like to see from a filmmaker in terms of stepping out and expanding their comfort zone. But unfortunately the conception or the execution was fatally flawed, particularly the socioeconomic ideas that come across as vaguely researched rather than edifying or even understood. (Too many moments seem to lean on misguided stereotypes.)

Anyway, in his defense, I'll also add that he's really great at setting up all of his films when it comes time to make them - everything from the casting to the locations in The Holdovers is impeccable, and as expected he was heavily involved in that. (Casting in particular took a long time - the lead child actor never acted on camera before and even after he was cast, Payne knew he'd need some instruction in that regard.)

*potential I would have guessed from Election

i haven't seen any of his movies between sideways and the holdovers, but it seems like after election he moved from making movies about anger to movies about sadness. which is fine, but anger has a lot more energy/drive than sadness. there's just so much simmering tension and resentment throughout election that gives it a spark.

i think sideways his best

@eephus- rather strangely after reading your post, but while writing mine above i actually did wonder whether i wouldnt much rather have seen linklaters holdovers

It was called EVERYBODY WANTS SOME!

OK not really but then again sort of

lol - that is a great, underappeciated film though.

I caught this in a small but surprisingly full theater over the weekend. Had to sit almost directly under the screen but it was fine. I thought it was thoroughly enjoyable and the people I was with, who ranged in age from 12 to 80, all enjoyed it as well. Maybe even better than Nebraska.

Seen The Holdovers and liked it quite a lot more than I expected, very good; seen Sideways today and it's fucking great, back when it came out I seen a bunch of boring old middle class people saying it was a boring old middle class white guy movie, so I avoided it, but it's a lot of fun. Shit on newsnight review, I can't believe I trusted you.

Never heard of Alexander Payne until this year but it turns out I've seen most of his films! I might seek out the other ones.

the bowling scene in the holdovers was filmed in my hometown! shoutout to the wakefield bowladrome.

nice movie, i enjoyed it a lot on the lead performances alone.

agreed, all 3 of the main performer's work felt effortless.

This seems pretty damning

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/the-holdovers-accused-plagiarism-luca-writer-1235935605/

Frisco script is here.

Read the first 40 pages and not seeing much, other than cynical, wise-cracking central character thrown together with 15 year old.

Some of the “line by line transpositions” in that document are a real stretch

Note that: 1. The scene begins with Paul/Wills in a library/quiet carriage 2. Paul/Wills is doing something relaxing, andhas a mug/cup. 3. The third action line sentence consists of Paul/Willis performing two body-based actions. 4. Paul/Wills' fist line is an exclamation that features a religious-based curse. 5. The surprise means he will be stuck alone with Angus/Amy. 6. The physical mechanism by which this occurs is a mode of transport train/helicopter).

yeah my kid read all of this to me out loud yesterday and it sounds bad until you actually read the details. 'line by line' is an utterly false statement.

I might seek out the other ones.

I still say it's all downhill after Election but yes, there's a lot worth seeing.

This seems pretty damning

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/the-holdovers-accused-plagiarism-luca-writer-1235935605/

― Piedie Gimbel, Sunday, 10 March 2024 4:52 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

i’m guessing you didn’t read it

I liked Sideways better than Election.
I remember disliking parts of About Schmidt but at the time I was pretty sick of that whole indie film/comics aesthetic of glum guys staring at the screen. Kathy Bates had a decent part in it.

didnt realise he was about schmidt

maybe the most vapid message ive ever seen in a movie

Sense of place, sense of character, sense of humor, sense of tragedy of failed lives: he knows what he's doing, if these things matter to a viewer. Knows it on the level of Chekhov in Sideways, The Descendants, and The Holdovers.

Note how the two scenes unfold on a near line-by-line basis:
1. Paul/Wills is working in his room/on the ward.
2. A messenger interrupts him to tell him his boss wants him.
3. Paul/Wills self-importantly tells the messenger to tell his boss he is busy.
4. The messenger tells Paul/Willis he actually must go now.
5. Paul/Wills reluctantly acquiesce

These are all like unbelievably stock scenes that you can find “line by line transpositions” of in films from the 1920s. I almost feel worse for this guy than I would if his movie really had been plagiarized, the deeper you go into detailed examples the more sad/pathetic it seems. Payne-esque, even!

Yeah at first I was willing to give it credence because he's not just a random loon but an actual produced screenwriter, but the more you see it it's ridiculous.

Paul/Wills is called to adventure.
Paul/Wills refuses the call.
Paul/Wills embarks on a road of trials.

The but where he’s like “clearly they used software to do this” 🫣

Also is the character called fucking Wills or Willis, in the holdovers the guy has the same name all the way thru

The Plagiarism Today blog has a thoughtful backgrounder on this:
https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2024/03/11/why-the-holdovers-is-not-a-plagiarism/

Though it contains a qualifier of note:

My Analysis

Note: I have not seen The Holdovers nor have I read Frisco. This analysis is based solely on the allegations provided by Stephenson and the follow ups shared by other screenwriters.

Saw "The Holdovers." I thought it was really well directed and acted, but the story and writing ultimately didn't transcend its more familiar/predictable beats.

Yeah my take too. Also nice to see snow, albeit in a movie.

I keep thinking of him saying "your toes would curl!"